Feedbackless gaming ?

[Gon0S]

Hello

I tried to seek discussion about feedback on NATAL and PSmove, but I did not find anything useful. So I try to start this thread with you. I follow B3D for years know, but I am only a gamer (trapped in gaming world since Vectrex/Coleco era) and never thought I will find a subject you could fuel with your ideas.

I am thinking about Natal system and it's really small amount of control feedback it offers to players.

I try to explain my POV :
Vidéo games always used physical system for input commands to the game.
The imput device evolved quite a lot. Remenber the turning wheel for pong, then almost digital imput available with ColecoVision 'joystick', or analog input available on Vectrex joysticks.
After that, we went back to full digital input devices on the Master System/NES with the micro switches, and so on for PC and following consoles. We had to wait until the N64 to see back an analog joystick again, with all the advantages we gained in 3D world. All other (SEGA/SONY/MICROSOFT) build their new systems using analog joysticks, combined with 'analogic' triggers and 'digital' buttons.

So, Nintendo, once again, revamped this control scheme again when they introduced the Wiimote. We have a wireless device, split in two 'almost' independent units (nunchuk+wiimote combo). This thing give to the user several 'feedbacks' :
- first of all, available with all 'phycical' input devices : you have to hold an object in your hand, so you have something you touch and feel, with it's weight, texture,etc...
- you have on these devices digital buttons and analog sticks, all theses are giving bounce and/or resistive feedback to fingers
- you have a rumble pack, or vibration if you prefer
- Nintendo introduce sound in this input device
- Nintendo introduced gyroscopic and acceleration measurement
- Nintendo introduced an almost 'volumetric' positionnal detection system (with the bar+wiimote led system)

So, NATAL system, as it is touted by MS PR and marketing soldiers, we will play games without all theses things. Just be watched by a camera, and all will be magic and amazing.

But hey! Am I the only one wondering what and when this supa dupa system will consider a real order from my own to input to the game ? And even more important for me, sound and visual information coming from the TV will be the only feedbacks I will receive ? hu ?

Just go back a few years ago, when SONY has introduced SIXAXIS, claiming rumble is out of date and useless. The whole gaming community was laughing loud at SONY for such decision, and we all know why DUALSHOCK 3 appeared so fast, and replaced in bundles the 6X6.

Going back to NATAL.
No buttons, no joystick (analog nor digital), no vibration, not weight, no resistance, nothing but a digital avatar trying with more or less fidelity to copy your movements, or computing your physical air movements in commands...
I know actual gaming device are totally disconnected from reality. Pressing a button make the avatar jump in a game, or fire a gun or whatever you can imagine. So why not mimic the movement in front of a camera that will feed the avatar with your movement ? Ok, why not. I can accept that a new era of gameplay can be created.
But just in the case of a driving game. Can anyone just only imagine how lousy the input system will be ? Not even thinking about holding hands in air for hours, or even 15minutes... And if I want to put my finger in my noze, what will the system decide ? pause the game for proper noze cleanup or horning out loud the oponent ? And worst part, how will the system decide I just change my hands from 09:00/03:00 to 11:00/01:00 just to relax as I can do in real life on a real wheeldrive or a gaming wheeldrive ?

I must really be too old in gaming for imaging something really useful for advanced 'gaming'. For me, Natal will be only full of casual gaming, like lousy 'whack the worms' games, absolutly boring games a la EYETOY.
Even if an developper decide to use the x360 joypad in combination with the NATAL, the original joypad don't offer giroscopic detection accelerometer that power Wiimote/PS Move.
So the purpose of the accessory will be limited to marginal moves, like interesting and revolutionary menu browsing, or head leaning and so on, but it will only complete what actual input device already offers to gamers.

What do you think of this userinterface problem ? I may not be a problem at all for newcomers, but for old gamers, or advanced gamers ?

 

[DRS]

Hahaha, that car driving example is quite funny. But I think you are right. Natal would be usefull for some kind of games, not all. For example you don't need much feedback for a game such as Wii Fit
For a driving game I'd rather have a g-force generating 'thingy' to experience the cornering forces and realistic feedback in the steering wheel (feel when you loose grip).

Perhaps in future we can connect our heads to the system and actually feel feedback through our bodies.... Great for military training too.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I must really be too old in gaming for imaging something really useful for advanced 'gaming'. For me, Natal will be only full of casual gaming, like lousy 'whack the worms' games, absolutly boring games a la EYETOY.
Even if an developper decide to use the x360 joypad in combination with the NATAL, the original joypad don't offer giroscopic detection accelerometer that power Wiimote/PS Move.

Much of this is already covered in the motion control thread, so this one is somewhat redundant. Still, none of the Natal proponents have ever thought a "pure" Natal only control scheme would be used for anything but casual games or menu/media navigation.

I'm not sure what lack of mechanical movement tracking would have to do with the second part of the quote if Natal can track your skeleton in 3D space anyways. It's obviously not going to be as accurate as PS Move, but nothing prevents MS from releasing an accurate 3D controller to use along with Natals skeleton tracking.

While I doubt that last is in MS' plans, there's nothing to prevent it.

Heck, back to the topic of the thread, 95% of my gaming is with "feedbackless gaming." I certainly don't have force feedback on either my keyboard or mouse.

Regards,
SB

 

[Gon0S]

Heck, back to the topic of the thread, 95% of my gaming is with "feedbackless gaming." I certainly don't have force feedback on either my keyboard or mouse.

I did not explain correctly what I meant with feedback. I think it is the less of feedback you get from the new input devices that are NATAL, and in a minor way Wiimote and MOVE.

Even with your keyboard and mouse, you have a feedback. When you touch a key or a button, you hear a clic, you have the button bounce effect that tells you 'fine, the button was enough pressed' validating your input.
The mouse has its weight, you feel the friction of the 'table' (as low as it may be, you are feedbacked by the sensation in your hand).

What I want to explain, is that for minor action, like just pressing a button, with natal, you'll have to watch a monitor and listen when you are faking the 'press button action', whereas on MOVE/Wiimote, a simple button clic is available with a real button.

From my point of view, this is a regression in immersion, even if you make movement that seems to be more lifelike, you do not have physical 'interaction' that limits and frame your own response to your action.