Effects of next gen consoles on you to buy a new HDTV?
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I was using the XMB for comparison, both pictures and video playbacks. I actually find RGB limited to have the perfect balance of black level even though it's less colorful then Full. Hm, gonna look more into it.
This is what I disagree with. A viewer doesn't need a mathematically correct, scientifically justified colour calibration. They just need it to look good to their eyes (and everyone perceives colour differently). When I tried the THX calibration tool, it produced garbage. My recommendation is poke around with the settings until you get something you like the look of. If you like more saturation, go for it even if the calibration charts say you're wrong. Or vice versa. It's your TV and your the guy having to look at it, so the only opinion that matter is yours.
I put a test picture like this on the picture viewer and adjusted settings until I got a good distribution of greys, decent black, and realistic skin and colours. It's quicker, simpler, and easier than having to burn a DVD or use some software, and I can guarantee that you'll be satisfied with the results.
Note: What picture setting do you have on the TV? Move and Dynamic and all that can change the image drastically. I was playing PuzzleQuest round a friend's and the colours were completely off. Eventually I could stand it no longer and switched the TV from movie mode to something else, and finally got the greens, reds, and yellows that the game was supposed to be!
For basic brightness (black level) and contrast (white saturation) calibration I always use patterns downloaded from http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ , everything else as color, gamma, white balance, etc. you can set to your liking, because without colorimeter you can't do much more . And I strongly recommend use of PC mode on HDMI inputs.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
I Installed Sony VPL-HW55ES projector to the ceiling today. Also got a pretty neat Grandview 92" pull up screen. I hadn't seen these type of projector screens before.
It has multiple height settings so it's easy to make it work in different setups. I currently have the screen behind a TV-stand so that the white screen portion starts a few inches above the stand. Some of the old furniture doesn't really work with the new setup and I dunno what I'm supposed to do with my just purchased TV... I have some head scratching to do here, but I'm very happy with the combo.
edit: HDTV uk measured the input lag for the previous HW50ES model to be only 16ms and I don't expect this to be any worse. A big part for me to get this over some couple other contenders in the same price range.
It has multiple height settings so it's easy to make it work in different setups. I currently have the screen behind a TV-stand so that the white screen portion starts a few inches above the stand. Some of the old furniture doesn't really work with the new setup and I dunno what I'm supposed to do with my just purchased TV... I have some head scratching to do here, but I'm very happy with the combo.
edit: HDTV uk measured the input lag for the previous HW50ES model to be only 16ms and I don't expect this to be any worse. A big part for me to get this over some couple other contenders in the same price range.
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djskribbles
Legend
Sorry but I have to disagree. Not to say that what you're doing is wrong because PQ is subjective. But, some people want to have their displays outputting proper levels and to have an accurate display. I actually have a colorimeter and spectrometer and I will settle for nothing less than to have my displays calibrated to D65/REC.709 with the proper black levels, white levels, gamma, color saturation, luminance and hue. But if you don't have calibration equipment and just want to tweak to your liking, that's fine, too. However, at the very least, I think that you should have your black (Brightness) and white (Contrast) set properly. Set improperly then you'll either be losing black/white detail, or in the case of black levels, they won't be as dark as possible. Everything else like Color/Tint and Sharpness you can set to your liking if you don't have a measuring device, but unless you do, I recommend not touching the white balance and color management settings.
Not everyone would be satisfied with those results, trust me.I put a test picture like this on the picture viewer and adjusted settings until I got a good distribution of greys, decent black, and realistic skin and colours. It's quicker, simpler, and easier than having to burn a DVD or use some software, and I can guarantee that you'll be satisfied with the results.
Movie mode is typically the closest to D65, but TVs never come calibrated out of the box. If you preferred something else to movie mode, then you probably don't like a calibrated picture, which is fine... not everyone does. But again, I will settle for nothing less than to have my displays properly calibrated. For video games, it's not as important, but for Blu-Rays it is IMO. If you tweak by eye, there's no standard or reference... all source material is different. You could adjust for one source and another source will look too washed out or have crushed blacks. But all Blu-Rays are mastered using the HD video standard, with monitors calibrated to D65/REC.709. I want my displays calibrated to the same standard so that I can view them how the director intended them to be viewed.
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djskribbles
Legend
Games coming with a basic black and white level optimizer should suffice, and some of them do. Otherwise it's impossible for a console to have a built-in calibration tool... you need a measuring device like a colorimeter or spectrometer to properly calibrate a display.
I just mean something like those calibration dvds, or different visual calibration tools so you can get something closer to a calibrated image, that would hopefully enforce or encourage devs to make sure their games obey some kind of calibrated standard. People get pretty good results with those diy calibration discs. A real calibration is not really feasible for everyone, but a disc calibration is a big improvement over out-of-the-box settings.
djskribbles
Legend
Agreed.
Scott_Arm idea is not that bad, I tried to use online calibration services for my PC monitor and while easy to use they didn't make much of a difference.
I think a bit problem in this is that you might need what you mention, a good calibrator or a professional. Even then do you calibrate the HDTV to your components or do you calibrate it to a professional calibration tool?
I think the answer is most likely to calibrate it to your personal taste. But it depends on the person too. I don't know if I could have ever done the focus, grey scale, 64+ point convergence, 32 layers of colours, and bla bla bla, nor used the service menu. This is something an amateur like me should never try without someone -a professional- there to guide them through it.
If your spending 3,000 or 4,000 euros or dollar on a HDTV spending two hundred more to have it professionally calibrated can be certainly worth it for a truly incredible picture. If you are cheap but also highly technical you might be able to calibrate your TV on your own. If you are prone to make a mistake in trying something for the first time, which happens pretty often, well then just stick with what your HDTV's regular menu system allows.
I am lucky I found a TV which has excellent picture all around from the get go. I think more TVs should have that opposed to people messing around in their HDTV's service menus.
Those service menus are not forgiving if you screw up, which can also screw up your TV and most of the time there is no reset button to bring it back.
I don't even know how to enable the service menu on my TV but as I said it's not that I need it, thankfully.
People use that Disney disc and check their results with the proper colorometers etc, and the results are respectable. All you need to do is use the regular menus on the tv. It's a lot better than what some people get out of the box, especially when those people might not have any idea what gamma is, or what brightness and contrast actually do.
You and I think very much alike. In my case http://lcdtvbuyingguide.com/ review calibration settings.
I've watched a video on Youtube featuring the projector you purchased and it does even have 3D! I wonder what are the advantages and disadvantages of this technology compared to HDTVs.I Installed Sony VPL-HW55ES projector to the ceiling today. Also got a pretty neat Grandview 92" pull up screen. I hadn't seen these type of projector screens before.
It has multiple height settings so it's easy to make it work in different setups. I currently have the screen behind a TV-stand so that the white screen portion starts a few inches above the stand. Some of the old furniture doesn't really work with the new setup and I dunno what I'm supposed to do with my just purchased TV... I have some head scratching to do here, but I'm very happy with the combo.
edit: HDTV uk measured the input lag for the previous HW50ES model to be only 16ms and I don't expect this to be any worse. A big part for me to get this over some couple other contenders in the same price range.
Some advantages are pretty obvious, and some disadvantages of course are obvious too. I wonder how they do compare to an HDTV when it comes to colour fidelity and calibration and stuff like that.
Congratulations for you purchase, I hope you enjoy it
djskribbles
Legend
All video playing devices typically output the same picture... it's the display that needs calibrating. A calibrator will connect a pattern generator to your display (or use their actual video player to display test patterns), point the measuring device at your display which reads the information to the calibration software (such as CalMAN or Chromapure) then they make the needed adjustments using your TV's controls. DIYers (such as myself) use the same methods, only difference is that we haven't gone through the proper certifications/training courses and just do it for our own purposes.
Absolutely it depends on the person. I'm not saying a calibration is for everyone. This is just a little side debate I'm having with Shifty. I originally just recommended that you, at the very least, use a setup disc to set the basic controls like Brightness and Contrast etc., because such discs can be found online for free (I've linked to a very popular one a page back).
And FYI, many displays come with all of the necessary picture controls in the user menu now. Service menu is rarely needed these days. But the service menu is definitely not something that the average person should be messing around with.
You calling me a nut?
FYI, due to panel to panel variances caused by the manufacturing process, settings do not transfer to another panel perfectly. It's the same reason why TVs don't come calibrated out of the box. Sometimes plugging in settings can actually make things worse. You're better off just using the best picture preset (which is usually Movie or Cinema mode).
Yes those calibration discs are definitely better than nothing, and recommended at the least (which is what I was trying to do).
However they can only get you so far. For proper grayscale, gamma and color calibration, you need a meter (which I'm not suggesting for everyone... just FYI).
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Sorry for messing up this thread but I dumped a load of TV talk from the Image Quality thread and couldn't think of a more appropriate place.
I didn't find that link, although I tried by reading your posts again, to no avail.All video playing devices typically output the same picture... it's the display that needs calibrating. A calibrator will connect a pattern generator to your display (or use their actual video player to display test patterns), point the measuring device at your display which reads the information to the calibration software (such as CalMAN or Chromapure) then they make the needed adjustments using your TV's controls. DIYers (such as myself) use the same methods, only difference is that we haven't gone through the proper certifications/training courses and just do it for our own purposes.
Absolutely it depends on the person. I'm not saying a calibration is for everyone. This is just a little side debate I'm having with Shifty. I originally just recommended that you, at the very least, use a setup disc to set the basic controls like Brightness and Contrast etc., because such discs can be found online for free (I've linked to a very popular one a page back).
And FYI, many displays come with all of the necessary picture controls in the user menu now. Service menu is rarely needed these days. But the service menu is definitely not something that the average person should be messing around with.
You calling me a nut?
FYI, due to panel to panel variances caused by the manufacturing process, settings do not transfer to another panel perfectly. It's the same reason why TVs don't come calibrated out of the box. Sometimes plugging in settings can actually make things worse. You're better off just using the best picture preset (which is usually Movie or Cinema mode).
Yes those calibration discs are definitely better than nothing, and recommended at the least (which is what I was trying to do).
However they can only get you so far. For proper grayscale, gamma and color calibration, you need a meter (which I'm not suggesting for everyone... just FYI).
Even so, I think I found the sweet spot for me, after following some advice and trusting my own eyes. I used Skyrim mostly to test things out, because of its range of landscapes, and the contrast between green, autumnal like landscapes with tall snowy white mountains in the distance, and the foggy atmosphere surrounding them.
The calibration is pretty easy because the colour accuracy, colour blend and contrast are quite fine from the get go!
Because of that innate picture style, I just had to change very few parameters in order to calibrate it.
Personal setting, seems to deliver the best image quality -Movie isn't bad either, perhaps a bit too warm to work well with everything, but that's a very easy fix if need be- without much hassle.
Full settings
So this is my setup and a little explanation of what each setting does -I won't mention most of the ones I didn't touch at all -save a couple of cases-, as they didn't need to be changed-:
Picture Style: Personal.
Noise Reduction: Off. Minimum -default in Personal setting-, Medium and Maximum do their job but they soften the image.
MPEG Artifact Reduction: Off -defaulted with Personal setting-. On also softens the image.
Pixel Plus HD section:
Advanced Sharpness: Off (Default in Personal setting). On does an excellent job at adding sharpness to the image but it also adds really crisp, overboard edges which can add areas of aliasing where there wasn't none.
Dynamic Contrast: Minimum (defaulted with Personal setting). Off, Medium and Maximum work well, but Minimum -and Medium- seems to be the most accurate and helps the excellent native contrast of the TV.
Dynamic Backlight: Standard. One of the most important settings!! Off, Best Power and Best Picture aren't as accurate as Dynamic Backlight with blacks and whites. Snow and fog look the closest to real life with this setting, and it shows! It also adds a great sense of depth because of the accurate dark parts and blacks of the picture.
Colour Enhancement: I have set it at Medium -default in Personal picture style setting too-, but with this one.... Off, Minimum and Maximum, are mostly dependent on your tastes. I don't dislike any of them. -Movie picture style for instance has it set at Off by default, and it looks great-.
Tint: Cool -set by default with Personal-. I also like Custom, which is like Cool, just a little more blue-ish perhaps.
Picture Format: Unscaled. This setting is quintessential. It means 1:1 pixel ratio. That's to say, the full exact image your console is outputting is the image you get.
This configuration is mostly meant for the Philips 32PFL4508H and 42PFL5008T models, if you want to calibrate them.
So this is my setup and a little explanation of what each setting does -I won't mention most of the ones I didn't touch at all -save a couple of cases-, as they didn't need to be changed-:
Picture Style: Personal.
Noise Reduction: Off. Minimum -default in Personal setting-, Medium and Maximum do their job but they soften the image.
MPEG Artifact Reduction: Off -defaulted with Personal setting-. On also softens the image.
Pixel Plus HD section:
Advanced Sharpness: Off (Default in Personal setting). On does an excellent job at adding sharpness to the image but it also adds really crisp, overboard edges which can add areas of aliasing where there wasn't none.
Dynamic Contrast: Minimum (defaulted with Personal setting). Off, Medium and Maximum work well, but Minimum -and Medium- seems to be the most accurate and helps the excellent native contrast of the TV.
Dynamic Backlight: Standard. One of the most important settings!!
Off, Best Power and Best Picture aren't as accurate as Dynamic Backlight with blacks and whites. Snow and fog look the closest to real life with this setting, and it shows! It also adds a great sense of depth because of the accurate dark parts and blacks of the picture.Colour Enhancement: I have set it at Medium -default in Personal picture style setting too-, but with this one.... Off, Minimum and Maximum, are mostly dependent on your tastes. I don't dislike any of them. -Movie picture style for instance has it set at Off by default, and it looks great-.
Tint: Cool -set by default with Personal-. I also like Custom, which is like Cool, just a little more blue-ish perhaps.
Picture Format: Unscaled. This setting is quintessential. It means 1:1 pixel ratio. That's to say, the full exact image your console is outputting is the image you get.
This configuration is mostly meant for the Philips 32PFL4508H and 42PFL5008T models, if you want to calibrate them.
djskribbles
Legend
This is the free calibration disc that I linked to:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration
It has limited usefulness without calibration equipment, but you can use it to set Brightness, Contrast and Sharpness. If you have blue glasses that come with some calibration discs, or a color isolation mode on your TV (ie: blue only, red only, green only) you can use it to set color/tint as well. But that disc also has advanced test patterns for full calibrations with a colorimeter or spectrometer.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration
It has limited usefulness without calibration equipment, but you can use it to set Brightness, Contrast and Sharpness. If you have blue glasses that come with some calibration discs, or a color isolation mode on your TV (ie: blue only, red only, green only) you can use it to set color/tint as well. But that disc also has advanced test patterns for full calibrations with a colorimeter or spectrometer.
So after testing out a few RGB test patterns, I can indeed see all the bars and that my TV supports the full range and is not defective. I have also compared to my PC monitor's output which is a match. I guess some areas are suppose to be on a certain black level. It's nowhere near as black crushed as the recent BF4 Xbone image though. So yeah, setting it to full on both TV and PS3 is the way to go, you get a much better color saturation which is a very nice feature.