Effects of next gen consoles on you to buy a new HDTV?

[djskribbles]

I have a setting in ccc
dynamic range 16-235
why is it there why would i want to display less colours ?

That setting is for videos AFAIK. To set the RGB range, you have to go to the pixel format in CCC/AMD Vision center and set it to RGB Limited or RGB Full.

As Brad said, you need to match your display. RGB Full range is typically used on monitors and RGB Limited is typically used on TVs. Many TVs nowadays have an option to support both ranges. It's important to have your display expect the same range that the device is outputting otherwise you'll have crushed blacks and whites and/or a washed out picture.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I have a setting in ccc
dynamic range 16-235
why is it there why would i want to display less colours ?

TVs usually have a limited color range while monitors display the full range of 0-255. I have to set my ps3 to Limited colors when I plug it to my TV otherwise I get crushed blacks. WHen I use it with my monitor, I set the color range to "Full" and get a better picture,of course. THats why now I never use my ps3 on my TV.

Similarly, when I connect my PC to my TV, I have to set it to limited range otherwise I get washed out visuals.

I guess, newer TVs shouldn't have this problem though.

 

[ultragpu]

As far as I know no TVs on the market support full range color, the setting is only used for computer monitors. Always set your TV to limited color range, TVs with LED local dimming should fair better with deeper black than the ones without it.

 

[djskribbles]

As I said a page back, many flatpanel TVs support both limited and full range... you just have to find the setting because every brand labels it differently. On Samsungs it's usually labeled HDMI Black Level: Low(16-235)/Normal (0-255). On LGs it's usually labeled Black Level: Low(16-235)/High(0-255). On Panasonic it's labelled HDMI/DVI RGB Range: Standard(16-235)/Nonstandard(0-255). I haven't owned or researched any other brands, but I'm sure the other major ones do, too (Sony, Sharp, Toshiba etc.). If your TV doesn't support Full RGB, then it's most definitely Limited RGB. If it's a monitor and there's no option to change it, then it's most definitely Full RGB.

If everything matches, it doesn't really make a difference either way. What you're essentially doing is setting the black level to either 16 or 0, and the white level to either 235 or 255. The most important thing is that your display expects the same range that your device is outputting, so it knows where the beginning and end of the range are. Otherwise it leads to either a washed out picture or a lot of black/white detail being lost.

 

[ultragpu]

I'll have to tweak around the settings a bit when I get the console then.

 

[Cjail]

djskribbles is right.

All TV noways MUST support full RGB, it's a requirement since HDMI 1.3
To quote form HDI 1.3 specifications:

"HDMI 1.3 adds support for “x.v.Color™” (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color view able by the human eye."

If your TV has HDMI 1.3 or above then it will have full RGB.

BTW
x.v.Color was also developed by Sony.

 

[Arwin]

Djskribbles is right, except in that it doesn't matter. It does matter, as you're effectively decreasing your image quality if you don't use the correct settings. Your computer/console supports outputting 0-255 ranges per color, and your screen supports the same range (my Samsung from 2006 supports this too).

But if you set it to Limited, the 0-255 values will be mapped to the 16-235 range. This is a lower color resolution, resulting in more banding unless there is some really smart processing going on to compensate for this (as I'm sure some TVs do). Effectively, when the TV and the console support 0-255, there are two conversions happening if you use the wrong setting, first translating the 0-255 range to 16-235, and then from 16-235 back to 0-255 (for each color). It should be fairly clear that sending the right information straight from console to display is preferable.

 

[djskribbles]

True...I should't say that it doesn't matter. With PCs, outputting limited can cause some nasty banding. However, in my experience, it didn't make any difference on the ps3. Haven't tested on x360. Have also tried on some Blu-Ray players and it didn't make much of a difference. Although with Blu-Ray, YCbCr is recommended.

 

[ultragpu]

I just tried turning RGB color range to Full on PS3 and the result is the color got more vibrant but somehow the black level is crushed a bit. My TV was bought earlier this year and it's the top of the range Bravia so it should definitely support full range. I wonder why the black is crushed?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I just tried turning RGB color range to Full on PS3 and the result is the color got more vibrant but somehow the black level is crushed a bit. My TV was bought earlier this year and it's the top of the range Bravia so it should definitely support full range. I wonder why the black is crushed?

You need to enable higher range on your TV for that input, no doubt. You can set limited and full RGB range on both display and console. If you don't have them both on the same option, the picture will be messed up (too dark or two bright in the shadows). Every display I have (all fairly entry level), this one being 6/7 years old, supports full RGB, so I'm extremely doubtful that any TV released now doesn't support it (save maybe some thruppenny-bit Chinese thing bought off eBay ).

 

[JB9861]

Full RGB has a negligible benefit on a properly calibrated TV that can accept both ranges. The calibration results will be effectively the same.

 

[ultragpu]

You need to enable higher range on your TV for that input, no doubt. You can set limited and full RGB range on both display and console. If you don't have them both on the same option, the picture will be messed up (too dark or two bright in the shadows). Every display I have (all fairly entry level), this one being 6/7 years old, supports full RGB, so I'm extremely doubtful that any TV released now doesn't support it (save maybe some thruppenny-bit Chinese thing bought off eBay ).

Yeah I'm currently having trouble of finding the RGB color range setting on my HX955, it could be called something differently tho. I feel like such a noob right now.

 

[djskribbles]

It might not be in the picture menu. On Sony displays, it seems to be called HDMI Dynamic Range.

edit: this shows you how to get to the setting:
http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia_i-manuals/FY12/HX950/AU/c_extinput_visettings.html

A description of the setting: https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/33518/p/61659,62766,63026/c/65,66/kw/reset+hdmi

In my experience, if there is an Auto setting, it never actually detects a Full RGB input signal and just uses Limited RGB (at least my Panasonic plasma doesn't), therefore I always recommend manually setting it to either Full or Limited.

 

[ultragpu]

Hm thanks for the pointer djskribbles, I'll keep looking.

 

[djskribbles]

FYI, the above link is the imanual for your model. It should guide you to the setting that needs to be adjusted.

 

[ultragpu]

It might not be in the picture menu. On Sony displays, it seems to be called HDMI Dynamic Range.

edit: this shows you how to get to the setting:
http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia_i-manuals/FY12/HX950/AU/c_extinput_visettings.html

A description of the setting: https://us.en.kb.sony.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/33518/p/61659,62766,63026/c/65,66/kw/reset+hdmi

In my experience, if there is an Auto setting, it never actually detects a Full RGB input signal and just uses Limited RGB (at least my Panasonic plasma doesn't), therefore I always recommend manually setting it to either Full or Limited.

FYI, the above link is the imanual for your model. It should guide you to the setting that needs to be adjusted.

I actually found the setting myself but much appreciated for linking me the info! I've been toying around for the last 20min. When setting everything to full on both TV and PS3, I do get a similar if not the same darker black level as before. It seems like PS3's RGB Full setting alone over rides the TV dynamic range setting. But after increasing the brightness level to 60, I do get a result that is more vibrant, saturated and better overall than set to limited. Yeah the difference is pretty noticeable but does need a bit of brightness adjustment.
Am I doing this correctly?

 

[djskribbles]

The Brightness control on the TV sets the black level and the Contrast control sets the white level. There should be no need to adjust either control when switching to Full or Limited.

There are two correct setups:
PS3: RGB Limited -> Sony TV HDMI Dynamic Range: Limited (or Auto)
PS3 is sending a limited range and maps black to 16 and white to 235. Sony TV expects black to be at 16 and white to be at 235.

PS3: RGB Full -> Sony TV HDMI Dynamic Range: Full
PS3 is sending a full range and maps black to 0 and white to 255. Sony TV expects black to be at 0 and white to be at 255.

Both setups should look nearly identical.

 

[ultragpu]

Perhaps my HDMI cable is too old? How do I tell if mine is version 1.3?
But yeah when I set both TV HDMI dynamic range to full and PS3 RGB to full, the result is definitely more saturated with more darker blacks. I don't know what else could interfere.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Both setups should look nearly identical.

Except they don't, which is why I bothered to change mine to full range and not stay at the clamped values. It is the 21st century people. Even 8 bit RGB is a disappointment. Let's not say 15% range is good enough!

Perhaps my HDMI cable is too old? How do I tell if mine is version 1.3?

There's no such thing. Any HDMI cable is good enough, just like any USB cable is (I'm surprised Monster hasn't convinced people that $50 USB cables are better for connecting devices to PC). The oldest and the cheapest HDMI cables I have connect my PS3 to any TV just fine. The only issue I had with a cheap cable is the connection was a little loose and the picture would go (pure static, which is how you know if your cable isn't working or not. See a picture? It's working 100%), so a bought a more expensive, lighter, better fitting replacement.

The difference your seeing is how the TV's producing the image. Pick whichever colour format you prefer the look of - that's the only thing that matters.

 

[djskribbles]

Except they don't, which is why I bothered to change mine to full range and not stay at the clamped values. It is the 21st century people. Even 8 bit RGB is a disappointment. Let's not say 15% range is good enough!

I saw virtually no differences on my setups. :shrug:.
Many people with AVReceivers just use Limited because it looks virtually the same, and they have other devices that share an HDMI input and they want to keep it consistent with all of their video devices (which typically output 16-235). The only device that I have that I saw a difference between Full and Limited was my HTPC, but it had nothing to do with color or black levels... just banding.

But yes, if your display supports full and it does not interfere with other devices that share an HDMI input, then by all means.

@ultragpu,

What are you viewing to compare? Use games or the XMB as a reference. You can change the output for Blu-Ray or disc-based video to either RGB or YCbCr but games/XMB will always output RGB. The HDMI Dynamic Range setting should only affect RGB signals and not YCbCr signals, but some displays affect both (ie LG).

If the blacks look different and it looks more saturated using RGB Full, then it doesn't sound right. I doubt it's the cables. I dunno... I don't have any experience with Sony displays.

All I can recommend to you is that I would get a setup disc with test patterns to set Brightness and Contrast correctly. You can get a free one here. You can also use the test patterns to verify if the black and white levels are the same using RGB Limited and Full.