Dreamcast Question

[Old Right Member]

Why did the Dreamcast go with PowerVR instead of a 3dfx solution? IIRC, it was going to be the Blackbelt with a 3dfx solution, but don't hold me to that, because I'm not sure if that's correct.

Did the PowerVR solution cause any sacrifices, or was it completely win-win?

 

[Sonic]

Good question. SEGA went with IMG's PowerVR graphics solution for many reasons. It provided better image quality at the time and well SEGA got a better deal out of it. If I remember correctly SoJ wanted to stick with Japanese manufacturers such as Hitachi and NEC rather than others.

There were two systems being developed simultaneously, but the one with 3dfx was also supposed to be a Saturn upgrade at one point in time. This just didn't pan out and VideoLogic won the contract.

There was a lawsuit some years back when 3dfx was still alive and kicking but I think they lost. I don't remember the details too well as it's been years since discussion has actively taken place about it both within the company and on message boards. DCTP when that site was still alive had some good discussion on it.

Black Belt was the system 3dfx was working on. Katana is the one SEGA decided to go with and that was with PowerVR.

I just did a quick google seach and came up with this thread: http://assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90

I'm not sure of its credibility but there are some interesting bits in there if you wish to give it a read.

 

[Simon F]

Why did the Dreamcast go with PowerVR instead of a 3dfx solution?

I would say it was both performance and features. There was a B3D thread detailing the latter but I haven't been able to find it.

Oh, BTW "Old Right Member", that's a curious name. I hope with age you also have wisdom.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Sega looked at every viable 3D techology from 1994/1995 to 1997 before deciding on PowerVR2.

Before the PowerVR2 based console was selected, Sega looked at


1994-1995
Lockheed Martin Real3D (Real3D/100)

1995-1996
Nvidia (NV2)
Lockheed again (Auburn / i740)
3DO M2
first-gen 3Dfx (Voodoo Graphics)
PowerVR Series 1 (PCX1, PCX2)
PixelSquirt ????

(1997)
second-gen 3Dfx (Voodoo2, Banshee)
PowerVR Series 2 (Highlander)


Sega selected PowerVR Series 2 and got a custom chip designed for their console (PowerVR2DC aka CLX2).

The price/performance of PowerVR2 was unbeatable, but that might not have been the main reason for its selection. Although Videologic designed it, the chips were manufactured by NEC, a Japanese company, Sega wanted to remain loyal to Japanese if possible, and 3Dfx gave Sega the perfect excuse to do that--In April 1997, 3Dfx royally pissed Sega off by revealing the existance of the next Sega console in their Initial Public Offering.
Sega killed the Black Belt console which used a 3Dfx chip. 3Dfx then sued Sega after that, and Sega later settled with 3Dfx.

 

[Extra411]

I seem to recall the voodoo chip 3dfx wanted to put in there was a voodoo banshee, which as we know is a relatively terrible performer, and PowerVR 2 would've been a more competitive chip.

 

[RudeCurve]

Both SEGA and Namco were already making games for the PowerVR 3D accelerator for PCs before the Dreamcast came out. I guess they got a head start on familiarizing game development for PowerVR than the 3Dfx chips. That was one of the reasons why Soul Calibur II came out so fast and so polished.

 

[Sonic]

SEGA had a prototype of VF3 characters Kage and Akira to show off what the 3dfx hardware could do. This was for the PC but never meant to be an actual development for the game.

 

[tripleagent]

"-In April 1997, 3Dfx royally pissed Sega off by revealing the existance of the next Sega console in their Initial Public Offering."

This is what did 3dfx in. The final 3dfx design was not yet complete when 3dfx blundered by revealing the existence of the contract with Sega. 3dfx tipped Sega's hand to Sony & Nintendo which caused Sega to terminate the 3dfx contract.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I'm guessing the 3Dfx chip for Black Belt was a custom Banshee.

The Voodoo2 was 3 chips: [PixelFX2 - TexelFX2 - TexelFX2]
and this makes no sense for a console which is only going to allow for 1 chip for the graphics. So Banshee being a single chip Voodoo2 with only 1 texture unit, that makes sense for a console.


Also Banshee2/Voodoo3 is probably not a possibility given that it was developed in 1998, released in 1999. Too late for being in the Black Belt, a console that was in development during 1996/1997.

Is it possible that 3Dfx could've developed an early Banshee2/Voodoo3 (with two texture units)? I suppose, but there's really no reason, given that PowerVR2 didn't have 2 texture units either. More likely 3Dfx could've clocked the chip higher, maybe to 125 MHz, to partly make up for the lack of twin texture chips that Voodoo2 had. Anyway this all focuses on dual texture performance. The base Banshee outperformed Voodoo2 in single texture applications. I'm sure that a tweaked Banshee at a high clock rate would've been more than enough for 3Dfx's contender for Sega's console.

 

[Simon F]

Is it possible that 3Dfx could've developed an early Banshee2/Voodoo3 (with two texture units)? I suppose, but there's really no reason, given that PowerVR2 didn't have 2 texture units either.

True, but PowerVR chips have always made more efficient use of the texturing pipeline than IMRs.

More likely 3Dfx could've clocked the chip higher, maybe to 125 MHz, to partly make up for the lack of twin texture chips that Voodoo2 had.

CLX2 could (apparently) run at 133MHz but that's not the issue. The DC system bus was 1/2 the clock speed of the SH4 and as that would not run at > 200Mhz, the clock for the graphics chip was always likely to be set to just 100Mhz. (other speeds would require additional synchronisation hardware which is a posterior pain)

 

[Megadrive1988]

And at 100 MHz, there's no way anything 3Dfx had in 1997 could touch the PowerVR2.

Black Belt would've had to have been massively overclocked to compete with Katana/Dreamcast, and even then, BB would've lacked the featured PowerVR2 provided that 3Dfx did not have even in Voodoo3.

 

[RudeCurve]

True, but PowerVR chips have always made more efficient use of the texturing pipeline than IMRs.

CLX2 could (apperently) run at 133MHz but that's not the issue. The DC system bus was 1/2 the clock speed of the SH4 and as that would not run at > 200Mhz, the clock for the graphics chip was always likely to be set to just 100Mhz. (other speeds would require additional synchronisation hardware which is a posterior pain)

So the PowerVR chip was basically detuned...that is very interesting, seems that's something that was never revealed up until now?

 

[Simon F]

So the PowerVR chip was basically detuned...that is very interesting, seems that's something that was never revealed up until now?

IIRC it was always targeting 100Mhz but the NEC synthesis libraries at the time turned out to be quite conservative.

 

[taucias]

I read that it was because NEC pushed things politically.