DLC pricing (renamed)


Actually, I'd be inclined to call it misrepresentation.
The response from Capcom is:

"Versus mode represents content that was created outside the scope of the original design of Resident Evil 5. This is an all new mode that required additional resources to create, not to mention the additional bandwidth costs."

Which is entirely reasonable.

The 'rumor' is based on IGN's assumption that 1.8mb is only big enough to be an unlock key for a mode assumed to already be on the disk.

This thing, frankly, is getting way out of hand and being fuled by misinformation and ignorance.
The consumerist, for instance, turned that quote into:

"Capcom had to develop the versus mode functionality in tandem with the rest of the game, test it at the same time as the rest of the game, and package it with the rest of the game. It's not in any way new creative content"

Thus the reason I started this thread in the first place. This needs to change!

And how would it change? Once a game is released the developer continues to add content to the game? It's a grand ideal, but ultimately is self-centred and ignorant of the fact that making games costs money. When you build a game you set out with an exact plan. You build to that plan, to spec, to budget. You then sell the game. If the game is popular, you can then justify doing some more work to extend the game. This work costs just as much money in terms of man hours (if not more), so why shouldn't it cost money? Good will is great but it doesn't put food on the table.
 
I do vote with my wallet, but most people out there don't. I have a close buddy who jumps at any new release whether good or bad. It's a damn addiction!

Shouldn't use an extreme case to gauge the average gamer's response. I do not think that the average conversion rate of DLCs is high. Capcom will need every bit of help to sell the add-on.

Everyone does vote with his/her wallet even if you disagree with their purchases.

That said, chargeable DLC is a relatively new and unpopular model. I think Capcom may not have done enough to convince people of the value and added effort beforehand. The timing of this DLC is also tricky (feels too close to release, but that's just me).
 
It seems that maybe the Japanese companies may not have a feel for DLC yet either (since one of the biggest offenders here seems to be Capcom and RE5). Of course the Japanese publishers tend to be not knowledgeable of western online norms, because online is not popular in Japan. Maybe they'll catch on with time and experience. They already create online MP modes for their games (Lost Planet, MGO) mostly for the west.

Just ruminating on Epic and Gears 2, they seem to follow the pattern of DLC=map packs. Nobody seems angered at this, it's just accepted norm. If you buy Gears 2 and all (2, 3?) map packs, you'll end up with a ton of maps, but also have paid 80, 90 dollars for the game. In addition yet another map pack (Dark Corners) was rumored around GDC time. In this case it's almost becoming overkill or too much.

But yeah Epic has pointed out you have to pay a fee (plus lead time etc) on consoles to certify anything you release on there. So giving away free content still costs the publisher money (PSN additionally charges the publisher bandwidth fees).
 
It makes sense to always charge for new singleplayer content since you can only recoup costs from people who already own (and have usually finished) the full game.

Multiplayer DLC is different. I think that it would make sense to have new maps and game modes free so that you can keep the early adopters playing. That way, you can keep word-of-mouth stronger for longer and then (hopefully) recoup your costs by selling more game disks to the friends of the early adopters.

WRT the OP, I think that content is meant for a few hardcore players. It sounds really different than the regular on/offline co-op mode so I don't think that most players would care too much if it was free even.
 
If people would stop crying about how much it is costing the devs to make DLC, think about this...... how big is the RE5 VS DLC... 1.8mb aka not even close to worth it's priced based off the amount of data you played $60 USD for.

Not only that but how close to release this has come out makes people a bit upset and for good reason, it looks like it is nothing more than something that was cut from the game just before launch.

People also do not like this because of how some other DLC is like, eg. Soulcalibur IV, Beautiful Katamari.
 
Take COD 4 for example, it sold over 10 million copies; thats somewhere around $500 million in revenue. Call of duty 4 has an estimated developing and marketing cost of $20 million. Huge return?
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your argument. If a game is well thought out, well developed and well marketed (money well spent), it should be successful and therefore make a lot of $$$ (percentage wise).
How's about instead of taking an extremely fringe-example best case scenario, you look at the real-world average? There have been plenty of well thought out, well developed and well marketed games that haven't done well. Mirror's Edge had a lot of prerelease interest and advertising, but was an economic flop AFAIK. EA couldn't predict Mirror's Edge was going to flop. If they could, they wouldn't have made it. They created a game hoping there'd be a market, spending millions on it, only for it to fail. The only reason EA is still going is because with all these sorts of losses, there are the huge grossing titles that prop them up.

You cannot judge a game's value in isolation. You can't fairly say 'this game only cost $20 million to make, so earning more than $40 million from it is greedy and the publisher should charge less' because the real costs for the publisher include the investment into other failed titles. You have to look at a company's past works. In this case, 'Activision Blizzard spent $70 million on creating a dozen different games, which altogether netted them $100 million, thanks in considerable part to COD4's success.' Obviously these are all made up figures. But the games themselves are part of a company-wide 'team effort'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of expensive DLC or money-grubbing. Some companies have plenty enough money and are just charging more because they can. But that's business, and though as a human being I hate it, that's free-market economics for you and the ubiquitous dream of all mortals to get filthy rich! If you want to understand the amount being charged for stuff, you need to look at the big picture, to see if a company really is money-grubbing or actually has a legitimate need to find more revenue. Those crying fowl aren't really understanding the costs. Once they do, if they still feel it's unfair, at least that's an educated opinion instead of a knee-jerk reaction!

TheD said:
If people would stop crying about how much it is costing the devs to make DLC, think about this...... how big is the RE5 VS DLC... 1.8mb aka not even close to worth it's priced based off the amount of data you played $60 USD for.
You're using this one example as the basis to overturn all cost arguments for all DLC?? "DLC doesn't cost anything and should be given away free because RE5's VS DLC is only 1.8 MBs!!"

Not only that but how close to release this has come out makes people a bit upset and for good reason, it looks like it is nothing more than something that was cut from the game just before launch.
Or alternatively, it was added to the game, but the developers/publishers thought they'd get no extra sales by including it. That is, the number of people who'd buy RE5 without VS is the same as the amount who would buy RE5 with VS. So instead they make an executive decision to charge for VS only for those who care for it, covering the cost of creating that part of the game (and yes, making lots of profit they hope) which otherwise would have just been an additional cost with no gain. Just because it's on the disk, doesn't mean you're entitled to it! There's often lots of stuff left on the disc dropped from development. I remember one of the XCom games had several weapons on the CD that weren't available in game. You buy what they advertise. I have a set-top box that can receive Setanta broadcasts, and these broadcasts are beeming through the air and being received by my box. So how come I have to pay to view the content that is already being received by my TV aerial?! I already have the signal in my box, so why can't I view it?!

The distribution method doesn't constitute a legal, binding right to access all features on disc. And if you think about it, what does it matter anyway? If they removed the content from disc and had a 1.2 GB download (which woudln't work on XBLive! would it?), would that make you happy? You'd still have the same data, but because in one form you have to wait for a big download, and the other it's readily available, the latter, more efficient distribution method actually offends you because you feel you aren't getting your money's worth! It's the same amount of effort for the developers to create regardless of the distribution method used!

Instead, people have the choice to pay for a VS mode if they want, with the developers getting paid for creating that content. Distribution method is irrelevant. Yes, if we didn't have DLC as an option it'd have just been incorporated in the game from day one, but DLC gives the option of publisher making more money. We also wouldn't have whole DLC games, or Tekken for £15 instead of a £30 PSP disc. We wouldn't have VoD and we wouldn't have free upgrades that add to our existing games and make them better. The are upsides and downsides to DLC, and it's now an inevitable part of gaming. By all means complain when it's unfairly used, like $5 for horse armour, but understand the realities of costs first, give publishers and developers a fair-trial instead of a witch-hunt burning, and accept that the market will dictate the decisions of publishers even when you do complain!
 
Capcom should have added some dummy files to make the content around 500MB size, that way people would not know it is a key. ;)
 
Thus the reason I started this thread in the first place. This needs to change!
Sorry, but when I buy something I just want to pay for the package I was promised, not for some additional content which may or may not be created at a later date and which I may or may not be interested in.

If people would stop crying about how much it is costing the devs to make DLC, think about this...... how big is the RE5 VS DLC... 1.8mb aka not even close to worth it's priced based off the amount of data you played $60 USD for.
What does download size have to do with value?

Not only that but how close to release this has come out makes people a bit upset and for good reason, it looks like it is nothing more than something that was cut from the game just before launch.
So what? Why should game developers not be allowed the freedom of offering optional extras to their customers? Some people may not be interested in that DLC, why should they pay for its development?
 
How's about instead of taking an extremely fringe-example best case scenario, you look at the real-world average? There have been plenty of well thought out, well developed and well marketed games that haven't done well. Mirror's Edge had a lot of prerelease interest and advertising, but was an economic flop AFAIK. EA couldn't predict Mirror's Edge was going to flop. If they could, they wouldn't have made it. They created a game hoping there'd be a market, spending millions on it, only for it to fail. The only reason EA is still going is because with all these sorts of losses, there are the huge grossing titles that prop them up.

I don't have the time or money to play every game; therefore, I don't buy average games. If a game is only average, but the publisher was shooting for top notch, then something went wrong somewhere along the line.

Mirror's Edge: It flopped because the game received an average review of 79.5/100. That is an average ratting and thus, an average game. My buddy told me is only like 5 hours long? I ain't paying 65 bones for 5 hours of game play. Furthermore, this game may have done better if it was priced lower, say $30-40? I would have bought it for $30.

You cannot judge a game's value in isolation. You can't fairly say 'this game only cost $20 million to make, so earning more than $40 million from it is greedy and the publisher should charge less' because the real costs for the publisher include the investment into other failed titles. You have to look at a company's past works. In this case, 'Activision Blizzard spent $70 million on creating a dozen different games, which altogether netted them $100 million, thanks in considerable part to COD4's success.' Obviously these are all made up figures. But the games themselves are part of a company-wide 'team effort'.
Dude, Activision Blizzard pulled in 2.2 Billion in revenue in Q3 of 08 (half of that was from WoW). The're returns are a lot more than 30%.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of expensive DLC or money-grubbing. Some companies have plenty enough money and are just charging more because they can. But that's business, and though as a human being I hate it, that's free-market economics for you and the ubiquitous dream of all mortals to get filthy rich! If you want to understand the amount being charged for stuff, you need to look at the big picture, to see if a company really is money-grubbing or actually has a legitimate need to find more revenue. Those crying fowl aren't really understanding the costs. Once they do, if they still feel it's unfair, at least that's an educated opinion instead of a knee-jerk reaction!

I do look at the big picture. Again, Activision Blizzard pulled in 2.2 Billion in revenue in Q3 2008.
 
I agree with everything you've stated here. That being said, what would you say the economic profit (all said and done, money in the bank) not including future investments (not a time traveler), of COD 4 is?

Also, please stop referring to the thought that I think DLC should be free. It's not free, you already paid 70 bucks for it. This is really not a difficult concept. Free is getting something without giving anything in return.

You paid $60 bucks for the game. Not the additional content. Most (emphasis on most) of the time, you get a complete product for $60. 5 years ago, you would be completely content with that. Anything that didn't make the cut would get implemented in a "sequel" (if the game was successful enough to justify one).

Fast forward to present day, and we are given the option to get a lot of the stuff that didn't make the cut, or extend our time with the game, for anywhere between $5 and $10.

You probably spend more on cheese burgers and soda each day.

Honestly, everything about DLC is completely voluntary. I see no sense in complaining about it.
 
Honestly, everything about DLC is completely voluntary. I see no sense in complaining about it.

Buying anything game related is voluntary, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss the merits and value of them. If they made games $100, would you say the same?

Honestly, buying games is completely voluntary. I see no sense in complaining about it.
 
Buying anything game related is voluntary, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss the merits and value of them. If they made games $100, would you say the same?

Your example is extreme, and in no way applicable to the discussion, IMO.

Last generation, you would pay $49.99 for a game. a year or two later, you would pay $49.99 for the sequel and the "new additions".

This generation, we can pay $59.99 for a game, and then 6 months later, enjoy more content and extended play (and new features) for another $9.99.

If I can pay an extra $10 to enjoy new content, new features, etc, instead of paying $50 for a sequel, then that is awesome.

I'm not saying all DLC is perfectly priced, or is worth it. IMO that doesn't even have any weight for discussion, as everyone's opinion and preferences are different. I think it was worth it to buy a few costumes in LBP because I enjoy them, others may have found them over priced. Subjective.

Your example is extreme to try to 'prove your point'. Unfortunately, it proves my point more than yours. If you don't like something, don't buy it, you don't have to. trying to somehow prove someone else right / wrong for what they may find value in is ridiculous.


If I found value in a $100 game, then I would most certainly buy it. If others found no value in it, then I would say the same "why are you complaining, you don't HAVE to buy it".


Right now the standard seems to be $10 for DLC expansions, $20 for large ones (Shivering Isles, Lost and the Damned, etc). $5.99 for map packs (possibly $10) and around $10 for Downloadable games. I won't say it's worth it to everyone, or there's great value in all DLC, but somehow trying to compare $10 DLC to buying a $100 game is nothing but extreme and over the top, IMO. I'd almost dismiss it as banter.
 
Your example is extreme, and in no way applicable to the discussion, IMO.
It is applicable as an example that showcases people are allowed to express their opinions, which you basically said they shouldn't. People are free to complain if they want, and as a result we debate the merits of the differing viewpoints. No-one should be here just to assert themselves and expect everyone else to step into line! There is no 'you shouldn't support DLC because it's daylight robbery' nor 'no-one should complain because it's all fair' absolute truth that overrules people's God-given right to whinge about stuff they don't like, or right to argue with someone else because you see things differently ;)

OT - Ooooh, PS3 web-browser now types direct into the textbox! No SHIFT-select yet, but PS3's browser is gaining in usefulness :D. Now to hold down the Delete key for a few hundred characters...
 
I just bought the expansion for Midnight club LA, $10, the Fallout 3 DLC (anchorage and the Pitt) $10 each = $20 Halo3 map pack $10 with mythic tomorrow $10 and CoD WaW maps $10.

all in the past 4 weeks so, yea... so long as people like me keep buying, they'll keep selling it... it's made my games more enjoyable and if they want to piece-sell me their work as they produce it, I'll take it. :)
 
You paid $60 bucks for the game. Not the additional content.

You are saying what the companies would WANT people to say, this thread here is providing an alternate viewpoint on the issue. The viewpoint of a consumer !

Its like the fanboy phenomenon that happened earlier, people forget what their own view is (or might be, if they let it sink!) and keep supporting the brand they are associated with, even if the brand sells their house away (extreme, pun intended !) because associating urself with a phenomenon is so cool and "in".

Now that we guys are classified as gamers and we associate ourselves with that identity completely, we tend to take the side of the creator of this identity, by default, but come and think of it, once. You say that earlier the extra content would become a sequel, now it is DLC. Why is it so? Because it is more profitable for the companies to sell little chunks in the name of the same game at a higher price that it wuld come to had it been a part of a sequel. Do you really believe that RE5 Versus mode would get the same money to CAPCOM had it been in a sequel ? If it had come in a sequel, it would still have been FREE, coz the sequel would have to have a single player RE too.

Lets talk about the map packs, the map packs cost around $10 right! DO you think four maps, which are inside the box of the same game would amount to $10 of $60 or 70 price that you pay for it? Most of the resources spent on the game go in creating the Campaign of a game, getting all the mocaps, the voiceovers, the 3D scans and environments done for a game, getting the original score, the actors, the story writers, etc. done. If a game ships with a SP campaign of say 10 hrs, and 8 MP maps, then do you think that those 8 MP maps cost you $20 in that $60 game?

When tha same maps are sold seperately as DLC, thay do not need any of those work that I mentioned earlier. All that is needed are the artists that are already in the studio. The costs are just the salaries that are being paid tom those artists.
Also, devs have so many time said in the interviews that it is just a team of 4 or 5 artists working on the DLC map packs. Add to that no packaging, no distribution at all. And then when they are released thay cost $10 !!!

My point being, the companies have found a way to sell the same stuff seperately at a price that is Huge when compared to what it takes to make those DLCs, when compared to the price of the full game we buy. Thay are selling overpriced stuff and everyone seems to go merrily along with them, and that encourages them even more they start selling even trivial stuff for $2 or $ 3 coz individually that amount seems very small. Whereas, if you put 2 and 2 together, we get that kind of stuff in just some cents if we buy it in the game.
 
My point being, the companies have found a way to sell the same stuff seperately at a price that is Huge when compared to what it takes to make those DLCs, when compared to the price of the full game we buy. Thay are selling overpriced stuff and everyone seems to go merrily along with them, and that encourages them even more they start selling even trivial stuff for $2 or $ 3 coz individually that amount seems very small. Whereas, if you put 2 and 2 together, we get that kind of stuff in just some cents if we buy it in the game.

But is it not up to us, the consumers, to show them if we think something is to expensive or not? If its not worth the price, I do no buy it. Then again if its worth it, then I buy. Examples are costumes and stickers for LBP, I do not buy those at all, but I bought the Pain smack pack extension, since it expanded possibility of playing online with friends.

But in general any company is setup to make money, what ever industry its in.
So if they could get away with charging $1000 for some DLC, they would do it, no point in kidding our-selfs about it.

Now even though the map pack in comparison to the full game is not as expensive to produce as the full game. Its also quite sure, it will sell less copies than the full game, due to many not having access to the console store and people not going online with their console , which means they are just trying to make sure they make a profit. And without actually knowing the breakdown of the costs and income is a bit hard to argue whether something is overpriced or not. There are just so many variables to consider, the salary for the 4-5 people doing the work is not the only expense the company has with producing the DLC.
 
Lets talk about the map packs, the map packs cost around $10 right! DO you think four maps, which are inside the box of the same game would amount to $10 of $60 or 70 price that you pay for it? Most of the resources spent on the game go in creating the Campaign of a game, getting all the mocaps, the voiceovers, the 3D scans and environments done for a game, getting the original score, the actors, the story writers, etc. done. If a game ships with a SP campaign of say 10 hrs, and 8 MP maps, then do you think that those 8 MP maps cost you $20 in that $60 game?

When tha same maps are sold seperately as DLC, thay do not need any of those work that I mentioned earlier. All that is needed are the artists that are already in the studio. The costs are just the salaries that are being paid tom those artists.
Also, devs have so many time said in the interviews that it is just a team of 4 or 5 artists working on the DLC map packs. Add to that no packaging, no distribution at all. And then when they are released thay cost $10 !!!
But as a consumer I don't care about the production costs and effort that was put into developing a game, or an add-on. I value a game based on how much fun it is to play (or at least on the expectation), compared to other things I could spend my money on, and the same goes for DLC.
 
It is applicable as an example that showcases people are allowed to express their opinions, which you basically said they shouldn't. People are free to complain if they want, and as a result we debate the merits of the differing viewpoints. No-one should be here just to assert themselves and expect everyone else to step into line! There is no 'you shouldn't support DLC because it's daylight robbery' nor 'no-one should complain because it's all fair' absolute truth that overrules people's God-given right to whinge about stuff they don't like, or right to argue with someone else because you see things differently ;)

OT - Ooooh, PS3 web-browser now types direct into the textbox! No SHIFT-select yet, but PS3's browser is gaining in usefulness :D. Now to hold down the Delete key for a few hundred characters...

I didn't say they shouldn't express their opinion, I just said it's pretty much pointless.

Honestly, everything about DLC is completely voluntary. I see no sense in complaining about it.

Complaining about DLC doesn't fix it, nor does it have any "real world" impact on how DLC is made, sold, or priced.

There are still MILLIONS of people who will buy Horse Armor, unlock codes for all cars in Need for Speed, skins in Pain, etc. Not a damn thing anyone here says or does with their wallet is going to change that. The people on "forums" are such a small sample of the masses that own these consoles, that any impact we have on sales is minimal.

So, like I said, feel free to complain and accuse developers of high way robbery, but the harsh reality is (and yes, this is pretty absolute) is that your words will almost certainly go unheard.

Microsoft does not like free DLC. They prefer everything has a price (ask Epic Games). Sony doesn't let DLC run through their servers free, there is a fee.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Lastly, in buying DLC, you are not only supporting one game, you are supporting future games. CoD4 made so much profit that it will probably support and fun many games that are far beyond it's reach (the recent licensed Guitar Hero titles come to mind). Somehow saying that a publisher / developer making more money is bad, is ridiculous. More money gives the developer more stability, and it also allows them some great room to experiment and release new IPs instead of relying on one or two "cash cows" to make their money (see: Midway).
 
I didn't say they shouldn't express their opinion, I just said it's pretty much pointless.

So is complaining about people complaining pointless too? These are message boards, they exist for people to complain and express opinions.
 
Back
Top