Direct3D feature levels discussion

Discussion in 'Rendering Technology and APIs' started by DmitryKo, Feb 20, 2015.

  1. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    His reasoning is that because Mantle which (no one has seen and is still under NDA) has a feature called Bindless resources that immediately makes Direct X 12 bindless resources Tier 3. I appreciate the correlation but that doesn't change the fact that DXDIAG is reporting only hardware level features. If AMD considered 64 as 'bindless' then he's flat out wrong - because 64 is a very specific hardware value. What if dxdiag when Tier 3 shows up for 390x shows a different value. Hence why I believe we should not jump to conclusions.

    Now, another reason I don't want to trust him as a resource is that later on he mentions that OpenGL and nvidia has been supporting bindless resources as an extension this whole time. Once again, API features and hardware features are not the same. DXDIAG only shows the hardware features! we must not dirty the truth! We should not be sparking an Nvidia vs AMD war over an assumption. 64 is the value stated by DxDiag, we need to report that, and that is labelled as Tier 2. That very specific thread was locked because of what we are about to do (claiming one is Tier 3 and one is Tier 2 vs Tier 2 for both MaxwellV2 and GCN). Except we have the proof sitting out in plain sight this time.
     
    #81 iroboto, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  2. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    I've added the FL and some example GPU's in there:

    [​IMG]

    Resource binding level (as long as it's above Tier 2) doesn't effect FL so at least there's no question around that. I see what you're saying about reporting the resource binding level but every source I can find specifies it as Tier 3 for GCN. Unfortunately non of them are original sources unless anyone can find something here:

    http://developer.amd.com/resources/documentation-articles/developer-guides-manuals/

    Hopefully one of the resident devs can confirm or reject that point.
     
    #82 pjbliverpool, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  3. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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    You could add Fermi to that, same features as Kepler / Maxwell 1

    edit: And resource binding tier is 1 for the fermi/kepler/maxwell 1, tier 2 needs more than 8 UAV slots?
     
  4. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Damn, yes that was a symptom of me trying to finish it quickly before I had to go on a call (I'm in work) and thus using copy and paste. Updates incoming!
     
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  5. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    lol you are doing the community good work. Take your time!
     
  6. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    It's alright, my call's finished now lol. The table is updated.
     
  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    Spreadsheet is perfect so far this is going to be really helpful for a lot of people, and clear up a lot of misinformation out there.

    Is there anything else we can obtain from the dxdiag?
     
  8. DmitryKo

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    ExecuteIndirect is available on all supported Diret3D 12 hardware (and Intel Asteroid demo shows a dramatic reduction of CPU load if used with fully bindless resources).

    No.

    No. We discussed that at the start of the thread. Direct3D 11.2 runtime supports graphics cards down to DX9.0c (through 10level9 which uses DDI9 in the WDDM driver), and yet it doesn't support some features which are only exposed by Direct3D 12 and 11.3. That's all that this slide implies.
     
  9. DmitryKo

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    No need to, my spreadsheet table in the post above has all the necessary data.

    As of January 2015 Steam Hardware Survery:
    RB tier 3 is supported by 10.57% of all D3D11 cards and 16.7% of D3D12 cards.
    RB Tier 2 is 28.03% and 44.29%, Tier 1 is 24.69% and 29.01%.
    All D3D11 cards make 76.91% of all GPUs.

    Let's put it other way:
    All 100% of D3D12 cards can run to RGB tier 1 limits - which is 63.29% of Direct3D11 GPUs, and 76.91% of all GPUs/.
    61% are compatible with Tier 2 limits (38.6% of D3D11, 29.68% of all)
    16.7% are Tier 3 (10.57% of D3D11, 8.13% of all).
     
  10. DmitryKo

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    It doesn't matter whether the market share reported by Steam is correct or not, this is what Microsoft were basing their numbers on in the GDC talk quoted above.

    From all we know, Direct3D 11.x does not support "full heap" i.e. Resourced Binding tiers, it's a Direct3D12 feature and Direct3D 11.3 retains the automatic resource management. Hence DxCapsViewer reports D3D11_1_UAV_SLOT_COUNT which is the maximum defined in the Direct3D 11.2 runtime.

    Also, if each stage supports 8 UAVs, then all stages can support support more than 8 if you can run these stages in parallel on different CUs, so it's rather 8 x number of stages.
     
  11. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Thanks. According to those figures and assuming there are around 100 million PC's in the survey (steam lists on their website that the community is over 100 million strong and I recently heard it quoted at 120 million) then all GCN + Kepler + Maxwell GPU's would make up around 30 million PC's. Given the PS4 was recently reported to have sold 20 million and the XBO is significantly behind, it's no wonder the PC is being treated as a first class platform these days.
     
  12. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    As per Dmitry's advice, it might be best to cover our bases and place DX11.3 on the top of that spread sheet ;). But luckily one day this will all get sorted out.
     
  13. DmitryKo

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    BTW your list of GCN cards is incomplete - here's my own take on both mobile and desktop parts (not including APUs except Xbox One, which IMHO roughly equals Bonaire Pro)
     
    #93 DmitryKo, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
  14. Nemo

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  15. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Thanks, yeah I was just giving some common examples rather than a complete list, I didn't want to make the table too big.

    The dxcapsviewer screengrabs that Ryan posted on the previous page effectively prove that table wrong.
     
  16. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Yes that seems sensible. I've updated the sheet accordingly. It still shows only what's displayed in dxcapsviewer so is technically accurate but may indeed be deceiving with regards to RB level (but not overall Feature Level) if there is a limitation in reporting with dxcapsviewer 11.3. I can easily produce a version 2 once we have the results of the DX12 dxcapsviewer.
     
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  17. pharma

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    FYI ...
    http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/quick-test-directx-12-api-overhead-benchmark.html
     
  18. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    LiquidBoy posted this on the other DX12 API thread.
    https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=1e3f...v=3&ithint=photo,png&authkey=!AMDq9A7ExwV10pY

    I don't have a GCN card =( unfortunately, so I can't test. But the enumerations show that we can retrieve a setting known as Resource Binding Tier 3. I have a 660, so I expect it to return as Tier 1. I'll try writing up an application tonight, should be fairly straight forward if that is the MSDN call for it.
     
  19. DmitryKo

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    The preliminary Direct3D 12 documentation is available.


    Hardware tiers for resource binding/descriptor heaps:
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn899127(v=vs.85).aspx

    FAQ:
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn899228(v=vs.85).aspx


    D3D11on12
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn913195(v=vs.85).aspx
     
    #99 DmitryKo, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited: May 17, 2015
  20. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Isn't it the case that we still don't know how many UAV's these GPU's support since the dxcapsviewer screengrabs may be misrepresenting full heap UAV slots as 64? In fact given this new information, we know for a fact it's misrepresenting it for at least Maxwell 2 which is showing 64 slots in dxcapsviewer but we know supports RB tier 2 and therefore MUST be full heap.

    So I guess the only question remaining is whether GCN1.0-1.2 are really 64 or also full heap. If 64 then they need to be dropped back down to Tier 1 and thus lose full DX12_0 compliance.
     
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