Diablo 4 [PS4, PS5, XO, XBSX|S, PC, XGP]

[Silent_Buddha]

We seem to be using the word cosmetics differently The default skins etc in a game are also cosmetic. Most people don’t care about spending money on “extra” cosmetics because the default is good enough. My point is cosmetics matter to people whether out of the box or as an extra download. Saying you “don’t care” about cosmetics is misleading because you certainly would care if the default skins were unimaginative and bland.

That's true, I suppose. I do have to say that I've yet run into any game I've played, other than FFXIV, where the default cosmetics were bland enough that I'd even bother to use their ingame transmogs (for example, I never used it in Diablo 3).

And even in FFXIV it wasn't so much that the default cosmetics were bland, but that I liked how a certain default cosmetic looked. IE - I was never tempted to buy any of their cash cosmetics.

It's even less interesting for a top down ARPG with an even worse implemented zoom in compared to D3 (which had an actually fairly decent zoom in for looking at your character). It's not like anyone other than you can even see it really, so unlike an MMORPG where you can get up close and really look at someone's outfit, it honestly doesn't even matter in the slightest, IMO.

Keep in mind, I know some people are really into that sort of thing, but I'd wager they'd still play the game regardless and enjoy it just as much with or without a cosmetic cash shop. But with the cosmetic cash shop, they can cosplay to their heart's content I suppose.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sure but in this case I think we can agree we’re talking about the experience / enjoyment of the game.

We're definitely not. The original point was:

Meh, it's monetization of cosmetics, I honestly couldn't possibly care less. It doesn't affect me, so whatever.

I have lots of complaints about D4, but the monetization isn't one of them. The things that actually affect my gameplay experience are the only things I care about.

Regards,
SB

Arandomguy then said cosmetics are part of the gameplay. Silent_Buddha's use of the term is the more distinct and it has to stand as separate from cosmetics or else his point makes zero sense.

Substituting 'cosmetics' with 'gameplay', his point becomes, "I don't care about gameplay*, so long as it doesn't affect the gameplay".

The distinction between gameplay and wider experience was made and needs be preserved for the argument.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@Shifty Geezer Yep. You'll frequently see people write things like "gameplay > graphics" and we tend to bundle artwork and and rendering together as graphics. I think visual cosmetics fit pretty nicely into the art category. Gameplay and graphics are both critical to experience, but they're usually delineated.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I'm always astonished that some people care so much about cosmetic add-ons. I'm glad that these people are funding my games though.

 

[trinibwoy]

We're definitely not. The original point was:


Arandomguy then said cosmetics are part of the gameplay. Silent_Buddha's use of the term is the more distinct and it has to stand as separate from cosmetics or else his point makes zero sense.

Substituting 'cosmetics' with 'gameplay', his point becomes, "I don't care about gameplay*, so long as it doesn't affect the gameplay".

The distinction between gameplay and wider experience was made and needs be preserved for the argument.

Oh I agree with SB on the need for well understood terminology. The term “gameplay experience” in the quoted passage is a bit overloaded though as in practice you can’t experience gameplay in isolation from other parts of the experience.

Technically you can have the same gameplay experience if you were playing with stick figures instead of high fidelity 3D models as long as the stats and combat mechanics etc remain intact. I don’t think anyone actually thinks of gameplay that way though.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Oh I agree with SB on the need for well understood terminology. The term “gameplay experience” in the quoted passage is a bit overloaded though as in practice you can’t experience gameplay in isolation from other parts of the experience.

Technically you can have the same gameplay experience if you were playing with stick figures instead of high fidelity 3D models as long as the stats and combat mechanics etc remain intact. I don’t think anyone actually thinks of gameplay that way though.

West of Loathing would like to have a word with you! An actually very good game.

Regards,
SB

 

[Malo]

Well the way I see it we get a $70 usd game with cosmetics or we get a $90 usd game without cosmetics. I’ll take the former. Yah you miss out on some skins but not even close to being a big deal. The economics of the industry are such that you need multiple avenues for revenue to keep the initial price low. This game will keep people at blizzard employed for the next two to five years

I'm not sure you're in touch with how the big publishers operate nowadays. Making it $90 wouldn't mean their "math" would work out to not need additional MTX. It's not as much sustaining the game over the years, that's just a small part of it. The goal is to generate consistent income far beyond the initial price of the game continually over years to distribute to executives and shareholders.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm not sure you're in touch with how the big publishers operate nowadays. Making it $90 wouldn't mean their "math" would work out to not need additional MTX. It's not as much sustaining the game over the years, that's just a small part of it. The goal is to generate consistent income far beyond the initial price of the game continually over years to distribute to executives and shareholders.

I just meant in the hypothetical world where there's no microtransactions the base price of the game would have to be way higher. It's just a made up hypothetical number. None of this is going to happen because the reality is games cost too much money to make to charge $70 for them. Micro isn't going away, so the best path is things like cosmetics that don't give an advantage to players with more money or willingness to spend money.

 

[hughJ]

IMO introducing MTX cosmetics into open-world RPGs kind of undercuts a big part of the value you get from shared social spaces in a massive multiplayer environment. Whenever I log in to something like Path of Exile and see a guy with a really fancy looking avatar it doesn't get my imagination churning in a "boy he's seen some shit" kind of way, but rather I just see $25 American dollars and a few mouse clicks to the eshop. Seeing a cosplayer with a great costume is novel, but not if you're standing outside the costume store where they just bought it. In a digital world where there's effectively a costume shop on every corner the only novel thing is to be naked.

I'd argue the effect is not all that different than cheating in skill-based games; in both cases you're supplying achievement without merit which undercuts the value of merit. In a game filled with cheaters it feels a little less special to get wrecked even by a non-cheater.

Of course none of this matters because the business model clearly works. Whatever is lost in value to some players is more than compensated for in overall revenue. On the bright side of things being turned off by that monetization model can save you a lot of time and money. Yelling at clouds is free and equally as rewarding.

 

[cheapchips]

West of Loathing would like to have a word with you! An actually very good game.

You could argue that Walking Stupid enables the ultimate cosmetic. That book would be a Diablo 4 item I'd actually pay for.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

IMO introducing MTX cosmetics into open-world RPGs kind of undercuts a big part of the value you get from shared social spaces in a massive multiplayer environment. Whenever I log in to something like Path of Exile and see a guy with a really fancy looking avatar it doesn't get my imagination churning in a "boy he's seen some shit" kind of way, but rather I just see $25 American dollars and a few mouse clicks to the eshop. Seeing a cosplayer with a great costume is novel, but not if you're standing outside the costume store where they just bought it. In a digital world where there's effectively a costume shop on every corner the only novel thing is to be naked.

I'd argue the effect is not all that different than cheating in skill-based games; in both cases you're supplying achievement without merit which undercuts the value of merit. In a game filled with cheaters it feels a little less special to get wrecked even by a non-cheater.

Of course none of this matters because the business model clearly works. Whatever is lost in value to some players is more than compensated for in overall revenue. On the bright side of things being turned off by that monetization model can save you a lot of time and money. Yelling at clouds is free and equally as rewarding.

Yup, for me, I just look at them and go, "they spent a lot of money" and then 5 seconds later I've forgotten about them and am going about enjoying the game.

Regards,
SB

 

[hughJ]

Yup, for me, I just look at them and go, "they spent a lot of money" and then 5 seconds later I've forgotten about them and am going about enjoying the game.

Regards,
SB

A game where you don't care what your character looks like because it's been made arbitrary, in a genre that's normally all about progressing/growing/changing your character. These types of games already suffer enough from the need to make every class archetype viable for playing solo, resulting in them having a lot of functionally equivalent abilities just with different visuals.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A game where you don't care what your character looks like because it's been made arbitrary, in a genre that's normally all about progressing/growing/changing your character. These types of games already suffer enough from the need to make every class archetype viable for playing solo, resulting in them having a lot of functionally equivalent abilities just with different visuals.

I mean, there is a complete lack of model customization in D4, so I already don't really care. The clothes don't suddenly make it more or less interesting. Where's my option to run around with a pot bellied male sorceror with spindly arms and legs? Or my option to run around with a sorceror that looks like they just got done working out 8 hours a day 7 days a week in the gym?

It just seems like a weird hill to die on. All the characters could look identical and I wouldn't care. All the characters could look vastly different and I couldn't care. Well, I might care a tiny bit during character creation, but after that I don't really care much what they are wearing as long as it is effective in game.

But then I've always been pretty clear that when it comes to games, for me it's Gameplay >>>>>>> graphics >>>>>>> cosmetics. I'm far more happy to play a game with mediocre or even bad graphics but fantastic and engaging gameplay with absolutely zero cosmetics. I've even played MMORPGs that had great gameplay but your character looked the same from level 1 to level X because armor didn't change their look.

Regards,
SB

 

[trinibwoy]

West of Loathing would like to have a word with you! An actually very good game.

Regards,
SB

Lol, touché.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Microsoft has a series x diablo 4 bundle available for preorder. The cdn site has it at $60 premium over the standard it includes some ingame cosmetic bonuses as well.

 

[SmooTh]

 

[MCharta]

Diablo will not have enough content at launch in comparison to multi year other gaas
But for a v1.0 launch is it really that bad ?

 

[Malo]

Diablo will not have enough content at launch in comparison to multi year other gaas
But for a v1.0 launch is it really that bad ?

It looks like a good amount of content for an initial launch. You'll always get the complainers about not enough at endgame but it took years for D3 to settle on an endgame rhythm.

 

[iroboto]

Game changes from beta feedback

Diablo IV Open Beta Retrospective: Transforming Feedback into Change

The Diablo IV Early Access and Open Beta weekends gave players the opportunity to see Sanctuary anew. As we look forward to launch, we’ve used player feedback and gameplay data to inform a series of updates to various systems. Come see what’s changed!

news.blizzard.com

Nerfs for sorc and Necro. Buffs for others.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Game changes from beta feedback

Diablo IV Open Beta Retrospective: Transforming Feedback into Change

The Diablo IV Early Access and Open Beta weekends gave players the opportunity to see Sanctuary anew. As we look forward to launch, we’ve used player feedback and gameplay data to inform a series of updates to various systems. Come see what’s changed!

news.blizzard.com

Nerfs for sorc and Necro. Buffs for others.

The only nerf to sorc seems to be chain lightning. Everything else is a buff. Without values it's hard to know the significance of the changes.