Diablo 3 - Gamepad Edition

[Shifty Geezer]

Well, Hard isn't challenging at all. Expert starts to be a bit challenging solo but doable -DH-, Master and beyond is another story. Regarding weak classes, if you want challenge perhaps the Demon Hunter suits you well.

I've played all the classes. As I said, we aren't allowed to increase difficulty as one player hasn't completed the game before. Therefore we have to sleepily go through the whole campaign for however many hours until we are allowed to make it challenging, at which point it's no longer new. One of those bizarre "let's restrict the control the players have to make the game how they want" choices developers keep making. Why enforce this limitation? What's wrong with letting players choose their own preferred difficulty from the very beginning?

 

[Cyan]

I've played all the classes. As I said, we aren't allowed to increase difficulty as one player hasn't completed the game before. Therefore we have to sleepily go through the whole campaign for however many hours until we are allowed to make it challenging, at which point it's no longer new. One of those bizarre "let's restrict the control the players have to make the game how they want" choices developers keep making. Why enforce this limitation? What's wrong with letting players choose their own preferred difficulty from the very beginning?

Can't you rush him past the entire campaign? I remember trying a second Demon Hunter build on the Xbox One, and some friends rushed me past the entire campaign, I was like level 70 in 3-4 hours or less, I think?

on a different note: www.softwaregeezers.net doesn't display on my computer.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

We could, but then we are level 70 with all the skills instead of the joy of levelling up, unlocking new stuff. Which kinda defeats the point, but is really what D3 is designed around I think. Hit level 70 as soon as possible and then work on the gear.

And yeah, www.softwaregeezers.net is disconnected from the website at the moment. Not worth the £150 sub fee while the websites not doing anything useful yet.

 

[Globalisateur]

We could, but then we are level 70 with all the skills instead of the joy of levelling up, unlocking new stuff. Which kinda defeats the point, but is really what D3 is designed around I think. Hit level 70 as soon as possible and then work on the gear.

And yeah, www.softwaregeezers.net is disconnected from the website at the moment. Not worth the £150 sub fee while the websites not doing anything useful yet.

What ? Why is it so expensive ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's the service fee for Wix who I use for the website. That was the renewal fee anyway. I could use a cheaper tier for around £75. That's for the 'pro' service with a few more features and no Wix adverts and linking to a domain.

 

[Cyan]

We could, but then we are level 70 with all the skills instead of the joy of levelling up, unlocking new stuff. Which kinda defeats the point, but is really what D3 is designed around I think. Hit level 70 as soon as possible and then work on the gear.

And yeah, www.softwaregeezers.net is disconnected from the website at the moment. Not worth the £150 sub fee while the websites not doing anything useful yet.

your friend could switch to Expert at least, it's very doable. I am level 27 Expert on Act I and doing fine. Not to mention having you helping him with a developed character.

Well, level 70 doesn't mean you won't be leveling up. You have Paragon levels, and that's an entire new way of never stop levelling up. I got my DH to 180 or so, back in the day -Xbox One version-.

The PC version is different with all the up to date patches and stuff, I think.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PC version is the same as the PS4 version aFAIK. Has Paragon levels, but 1% more speed or critical chance isn't levelling up in the same way as getting skills. As I say, D3 is about the numbers, and working towards getting ever bigger numbers. Games like CON were about slowly levelling and the thrill of getting a new skill.

We're on the hardest mode available for beginners whatever it's called, all playing fresh level 1 characters, not using any inventory items or stored cash to buy better gear. There's no way to make it harder short of not equipping gear. It's just not made that way. Which is understandable - the game has sold squillions and people play it to death and beyond so it's a formula that works! I've sunk hundreds of hours into it myself. It's just...it's like a sort of junk-food of gaming IMO. It'd be nice to have a game of this ilk that was...grown up. That challenged its players rather than being about just crushing through countless mobs and churning through thousands of irrelevant pickups for the 0.01% that actually matter. All IMHO.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

PC version is the same as the PS4 version aFAIK. Has Paragon levels, but 1% more speed or critical chance isn't levelling up in the same way as getting skills. As I say, D3 is about the numbers, and working towards getting ever bigger numbers. Games like CON were about slowly levelling and the thrill of getting a new skill.

We're on the hardest mode available for beginners whatever it's called, all playing fresh level 1 characters, not using any inventory items or stored cash to buy better gear. There's no way to make it harder short of not equipping gear. It's just not made that way. Which is understandable - the game has sold squillions and people play it to death and beyond so it's a formula that works! I've sunk hundreds of hours into it myself. It's just...it's like a sort of junk-food of gaming IMO. It'd be nice to have a game of this ilk that was...grown up. That challenged its players rather than being about just crushing through countless mobs and churning through thousands of irrelevant pickups for the 0.01% that actually matter. All IMHO.

It was originally like that at launch on PC, but then people complained it was too hard. So they got rid of Insane difficulty and replaced it with tiered Torment levels and at the same time nerfed the difficulty of the starting difficulty massively when they ported it to console. PC then got the same difficulty scaling options as the console versions.

Basically Blizzard didn't want the starting experience on the console version to be overly difficult so I think they over compensated and made it far too easy.

Regards,
SB

 

[Malo]

Gaining the skills and going through the campaign is basically the equivalent of a game's tutorial. The game is built around cooperating in various content to farm gear and resources to get better. Running Rifts and Greater Rifts of higher and higher difficulty to challenge the group and be able to earn better drops. Then doing it all over again with different classes, or the same class with completely different builds. I have 2-3 of each class because they're very different to play.

If you play it for the campaign then you're probably all going to get bored of it fairly quickly once you've tried out different classes.

 

[Sigfried1977]

I played it on PC day 1. Or rather on whichever day I finally managed to log in. And yes, normal was way more challenging back then. I think I actually died a couple of times.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Another thing that shows how simple and unchallenging D3 can be. In CON, you have checkpoints and when a teammate dies, you need to find a checkpoint to ressurrect them. This can result in exciting moments of a boss character killing all but one and them scrambling to escape pursuing foes to reach a checkpoint and bring back the teammates. There's the threat of everyone dying and losing all progress since the last time you saved - which isn't that much unless you never save but is a genuine penalty. In D3, a friend died and recovery was to press Triangle and come back to life again. Didn't even need teammates to come over and heal them as is normal for these games. So even if you die, it only results in a few seconds of inactivity such that you don't even care.

Strangely, as in interactive entertainment, it's not the interactions in D3 that matter. It's a hobby more like train/bird spotting than playing sports.

 

[Cyan]

PC version is the same as the PS4 version aFAIK. Has Paragon levels, but 1% more speed or critical chance isn't levelling up in the same way as getting skills. As I say, D3 is about the numbers, and working towards getting ever bigger numbers. Games like CON were about slowly levelling and the thrill of getting a new skill.

We're on the hardest mode available for beginners whatever it's called, all playing fresh level 1 characters, not using any inventory items or stored cash to buy better gear. There's no way to make it harder short of not equipping gear. It's just not made that way. Which is understandable - the game has sold squillions and people play it to death and beyond so it's a formula that works! I've sunk hundreds of hours into it myself. It's just...it's like a sort of junk-food of gaming IMO. It'd be nice to have a game of this ilk that was...grown up. That challenged its players rather than being about just crushing through countless mobs and churning through thousands of irrelevant pickups for the 0.01% that actually matter. All IMHO.

hmmm, I'd say I changed the difficulty to Expert at very very early levels, you just have to change it one step at a time. Hard, then Expert.

I disagree on the fact that in Diablo 3 you just stop leveling up, when you actually never do. I mean, you are proposing adding new skills instead of increasing stats, but there's no way I see it working that way. If the game was designed like you are suggesting, there could be dozens of skills, and that's too much hassle for the player.

Diablo 3 is designed to have new skills added every level till level 60 or so. Then when you reach level 70 it's all about Paragon levels. Which keeps the game interesting, along with the gear.

What does CON stand for?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

hmmm, I'd say I changed the difficulty to Expert at very very early levels, you just have to change it one step at a time. Hard, then Expert.

We did Expert form the very beginning. Still no challenge.

I disagree on the fact that in Diablo 3 you just stop leveling up, when you actually never do. I mean, you are proposing adding new skills instead of increasing stats, but there's no way I see it working that way. If the game was designed like you are suggesting, there could be dozens of skills, and that's too much hassle for the player.

I'm not saying D3 should change. D3 is what it is, which is designed to be endless. It's about the loot and the builds. The other approach, the traditional one from Diablo 2 and CON et al following the AD&D concept, is your character levels more slowly, and each level unlocks or upgrades abilities. Levelling up is a Big Deal and gives a sense of progress. Where D3 has you max out after one play through and then pile on the paragon after that (it's actually the level 70 gear that defines the end-game IMO), other games will see you complete the campaign at maybe level 25 and have to play through another couple of times to unlock all the skills. D3 could be exactly the same with the same skills as now, but just level at 1/3 the rate. Or even keep it as it is now and just allow the difficulty to be raised to be actually challenging. The problem is the first play-through is forced stupidly easy and yet the levelling is relentless so you're maxed out in terms of skills and there's nothing new in terms of gameplay for the next play-through. I think the main issue for me is no reward or peril system. It just effortlessly doles out kills and levels and skills and gear. It's like free, endless ice-cream. The past few times we levelled up, we didn't even bother to go through and check new skills because it doesn't make any difference.

What does CON stand for?

Champions of Norrath, a PS2 exclusive based on Sony Online Entertainment's Everquest universe. As it was published by Ubisoft, IP is pretty mixed up I guess. It was notably special (along with Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance) at the time as a rare game guys could play with their girlfriend/wife. If you ever hear fans of CON talk about the genre, they all lament the lack of a modern sequel. There are lots of ARPGs but none balanced quite as well.

 

[AlphaWolf]

The challenge in D3 was never meant to be the campaign. The leaderboard is the challenge.

 

[Cyan]

We did Expert form the very beginning. Still no challenge.

I'm not saying D3 should change. D3 is what it is, which is designed to be endless. It's about the loot and the builds. The other approach, the traditional one from Diablo 2 and CON et al following the AD&D concept, is your character levels more slowly, and each level unlocks or upgrades abilities. Levelling up is a Big Deal and gives a sense of progress. Where D3 has you max out after one play through and then pile on the paragon after that (it's actually the level 70 gear that defines the end-game IMO), other games will see you complete the campaign at maybe level 25 and have to play through another couple of times to unlock all the skills. D3 could be exactly the same with the same skills as now, but just level at 1/3 the rate. Or even keep it as it is now and just allow the difficulty to be raised to be actually challenging. The problem is the first play-through is forced stupidly easy and yet the levelling is relentless so you're maxed out in terms of skills and there's nothing new in terms of gameplay for the next play-through. I think the main issue for me is no reward or peril system. It just effortlessly doles out kills and levels and skills and gear. It's like free, endless ice-cream. The past few times we levelled up, we didn't even bother to go through and check new skills because it doesn't make any difference.

Champions of Norrath, a PS2 exclusive based on Sony Online Entertainment's Everquest universe. As it was published by Ubisoft, IP is pretty mixed up I guess. It was notably special (along with Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance) at the time as a rare game guys could play with their girlfriend/wife. If you ever hear fans of CON talk about the genre, they all lament the lack of a modern sequel. There are lots of ARPGs but none balanced quite as well.

Expert is not much of a challenge I agree. Even for new characters. The "issue" is not the difficulty level itself, is that I -and people in general- use an increased difficulty to level up faster. If you take some extra time to defeat a monster -which is normal for Expert at the beginning- and take more damage from said monster BUT you level up faster, it all compensates. That's why it is more fun to start at a "challenging" difficulty level.

Level 31 now -still in Act 1-. I think I like the PC controls more -purchased Diablo 3 on PC day one, but never completed it then 'cos my PC was crap at the time, I played a lot more on the console-.

I play 95% of the game with a single hand.

Mouse controls
Left button -- Evasive shot
Right Button - Elemental Arrow
Wheel up - Vault
Wheel down - Turrets
Wheel button - Strafe (sometimes Vengeance)

And that's it. I call the pet (Bat, very nice hatred bonus) with 2 -keyboard- from time to time. Multishot and stuff like that. Close all the windows with Space...,but 99% of the time I play with a hand and that's it. More comfortable for me than using a controller.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The challenge in D3 was never meant to be the campaign.

Really?? When the game launched 7 years ago without paragon levels and Rifts and seasons? I think the challenge was very much the lengthy, high-quality campaign and its been reinvented since then to maintain player base, sales and revenue. Maybe the difficulty levels have been completely gimped since it first launched too to attract casual players?

 

[AlphaWolf]

The difficulty has definitely been scaled down, but the console version has always been a bit easier. Also the addition of gear has contributed.

I never thought of the campaign as lengthy, my group finished it in one sitting and then we got to farming for the AH.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm tempted to fire up the original on PS3 for comparison. As for length, that must have been one long sitting! Main story is 18 hours on average. We've played two evenings skipping everything skippable and not caring to cover 100% of the maps and only just got onto Chapter 2.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I'd like to see how they calculate that average, but I would call my group well above average. Even then we're not pro's. I logged on the first evening of the last season and checked the leaderboard and there were already people clearing grift 100.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That main average is from users reporting how long it took them. Original campaign duration doesn't really relate to season activities.

I've tried the original on PS3 (Diablo 3 first release, not ROS) and it's definitely harder, though not hard.

On PS3, the three start difficulties are Easy, Medium and Hard, with Master Levels after that. I started a new Demon Hunter on tier 3, 'Hard.' Not hard at all. Lots of health orbs were dropped. I cleared all of the Cathedral and freed Deckard Caine and turning that in landed me at level 5. I finished killing the Blacksmith's wife which was just a case of gunning her down with Rapid Fire, no trouble at all. I didn't get any Reptilian gear but didn't at any point need a potion (which were inventory items you could buy and sell back then!).

Then turned to PS4. The difficulty levels here are called Normal, Hard and Extreme. Created a new DH at difficulty tier 3, 'Extreme.' Noticed the levelling was much faster, and also the second skill unlock Impale was better. I checked the stats and it's 750% dmg versus 265% dmg in the original, so that made killing mobs a lot easier than the original. I was level 5 by the time I entered Adria's mother's hut. The boss in there was a little tricky and took a while to kill on account of loads of HP. At this level I found I had plenty of Reptilian items and have found that with other characters created in Extreme that this seems to be always the case - you get reptilian gear and can always heal between battles. I didn't clear the whole cathedral as it was larger than the PS3 play through. Finished at the same point at level 9. The Blacksmith's Wife took more gunning down than the PS3 version and she got a few hits in on me. I used a potion once (outside Adria's hut) when I stupidly backed into a corner.

Then tried a Hard mode, tier 2 difficulty new DH. No reptilian gear but no problem either. Levelling was also way faster than the original, allowing Rapid Fire to gun down the boss in Adria's Hut no problem. Ended at the same place on level 8. The Blacksmith's wife also got a few hits in here.

In none of these games did I buy gear. I equipped whatever was dropped. For the PS3, the best bow I found was a white 7 dmg. You could only equip bows in that version, whereas a DH can equip anything in ROS. In ROS I had blue 11 dmg bows in both games.

Overall I think maybe, perhaps, bosses have been made proportionally tougher in ROS, but levelling, gear, and perhaps skills have been amped and tweaked to make it that much easier overall. Also, levelling up is much faster, as the new aim of the game is to level to 70 as soon as possible and then play rifts and farms. The original design of the game definitely seems in keeping with the standards for the genre though.

It's worth mentioning that AFAIK every game of this ilk is far too easy to begin with. Even CON required you to complete normal mode before Hard was unlocked. I can understand not wanting to frighten off new players with a game too hard, but why ever limit it and potentially bore players who find it too easy? If you already have user-selectable difficulty levels in there, why not expose them from the very beginning and let the players find their own sweet spot??