Creative X-fi now listed at stores

[CosmoKramer]

CL has had very good DACs (and good ADCs on the top models) since the A2. For some reason I hear that argument alot from CL bashers; must be an easy way to hide that they really are clueless.


The major problem CL has had with sound quality was the subpar hardware resampling of the EMU10Kx chips. The DSP on the X-Fi cards don't have this problem.

 

[MatiasZ]

CL has had very good DACs (and good ADCs on the top models) since the A2. For some reason I hear that argument alot from CL bashers; must be an easy way to hide that they really are clueless.

The major problem CL has had with sound quality was the subpar hardware resampling of the EMU10Kx chips. The DSP on the X-Fi cards don't have this problem.

I'm not saying those on A2's aren't good... just that I would like to see better ones (which do exist) instead of other check-mark features... and in case your 'clueless creative bashers' was directed to my post, I've owned CL products for over a decade and enjoyed them all as I enjoy my A2... that still doesn't mean I can't wish that the product improves next time

 

[swaaye]

Matias, actually Live!'s just do the Audigy's Stereo Surround mode fulltime where you need to enable that under CMSS on Audigy. It's not CMSS though, that's a separate setting. I was a bit confused myself at first, having been a Live! user from '98 till 2004.

And as CosmoKramer said, people bash Creative's audio quality mostly because of the DSP's forced resampling to 48KHz. Their cards have been doing this since the Live!. I'm not positive but I actually think this is part of the AC97 spec. So I have a feeling that Creative built the chip around this (48KHz was actually a very popular top frequency for high end ISA sound cards before AC97 too). My crusty Ensoniq cards all support 16-bit 48KHz. In fact the Soundscape ELITE has a DSP onboard that I'm sure resamples stuff lol. Obviously it must be quite hard to build a DSP that can switch frequencies.

The problem is that 44.1KHz isn't an ideal spot to go up to 48KHz, especially how Live! and Audigy do it. So people claim they hear the IMD issues that result, etc. I honestly can't tell the difference between Live!/Audigy resampling and using a high quality resampler plugin for Winamp.

And you can get around the resampling. Audigy has an option sometimes for bit accurate playback. Otherwise you can disable all of the DSP functions in the panels. EAX, CMSS, Bass/Treble, and EQ, among others. This will disable the DSP. Or you can give the KX drivers a try and those are amazingly powerful if you aren't a gamer. Too bad they haven't been updated in a long time...

 

[MatiasZ]

Matias, actually Live!'s just do the Audigy's Stereo Surround mode fulltime where you need to enable that under CMSS on Audigy. It's not CMSS though, that's a separate setting. I was a bit confused myself at first, having been a Live! user from '98 till 2004.

I know, that's what I was trying to expose in my post

The setting would be this one:

http://matiasz.dyndns.org/public/cmms.jpg (how did links work here??)

It did took me some time to find it thow, at first thinking something was 'wrong' with the card: CMSS was enabled but on the first setting, and back speakers sounded like crap

Regarding the resampling problems, thank you for explaining them thoroughly for me, I am of aware of such problems and that was not what I was refering to regarding DAC's and ADC's. I know current boards have way better quality ones than say a regular Live!, but still is not on par with what you can find on other cards on the same price range as the expensive Audigy's - these cards lack the gaming potential that Creative products have, so it's a give and take scenario, but I could live without all the 'features' I NEVER use from CL, keep the gaming potential, and use (even) better quality components.

 

[MatiasZ]

BTW, since you used a Live! and currently have an Audigy, do you have any idea regarding this?

BTW, I recall in my SBLive 5.1 X-Gamer I had the chance by using the mixer to determine where each sound source would be placed on the surrounding, i.e. I could setup CD music to be played from behind and Aux-In from left right, etc... I can't seem to be able to find this now, has anyone used it before - is using it now?

 

[swaaye]

BTW, since you used a Live! and currently have an Audigy, do you have any idea regarding this?

I remember that now. I think that was in Liveware 2 or 3 actually. That's a while back.. I don't think that feature stil exists in the XP drivers for Live! or Audigy. There's a picture of the old mixer on this page.

 

[CosmoKramer]

And you can get around the resampling. Audigy has an option sometimes for bit accurate playback.

No, you can't get around the resampling - that feature doesn't work.

 

[MatiasZ]

I remember that now. I think that was in Liveware 2 or 3 actually. That's a while back.. I don't think that feature stil exists in the XP drivers for Live! or Audigy. There's a picture of the old mixer on this page.

YES that was it. Thank you. It's far better than the current options, why would they drop it?

 

[swaaye]

No, you can't get around the resampling - that feature doesn't work.

You may be right cuz I can't hear the difference anyway. Headphones, Klipsch speakers, whatever. It's indistinguishable to me and certainly to anyone I know cuz I'm far more particular about these things.

I don't know about the "bit accurate" playback working or not, but I've read in several different places that disabling the various DSP features in the panels disables the DSP engine. And on my PCMCIA Audigy using "bit accurate" playback disables all of those for ya and you only get 2 speaker output.

KX drivers certainly get around resampling, though those drivers are complicated and not good for games really. But they have an absolutely amazing effects routing panel that lets you do anything with the DSP and I/O. They have individual placeable effects generators that run microcode and you can route these like you would a Visio diagram.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I don't know about the "bit accurate" playback working or not, but I've read in several different places that disabling the various DSP features in the panels disables the DSP engine.

That is true if you are listening/recording to 96 kHz or 192 kHz sources (it redirects the the data-stream to another chip called P16V) . I discovered that s couple of years ago when I was investigating whether the Audigy2 could playback 24/96 correctly (it can). As you know, CL was a little less than honest with the Audigy1 regarding that capability...

And on my PCMCIA Audigy using "bit accurate" playback disables all of those for ya and you only get 2 speaker output.

The portable Audigies are better in that regard - they actually can playback 44.1 kHz correctly. The reason is that they have no EMU10Kx chip. Depending on the mixer and output settings it is possible that you might get your card to operate in bit-matched mode.

KX drivers certainly get around resampling, though those drivers are complicated and not good for games really.

Not for the regular PCI-Audigies they don't. The reason is that the cards lack the crystal necessary for 44.1 kHz playback. They only have a single crystal that it can derive 48/96/192 kHz from.