Could be more RSX info...
- Thread starter leechan25
- Start date
borntosoul
Regular
question. what do sony have to hide at this time?
the 360 is out and the revolution is all but finnished spec wise (too late to make any major changes).
edit: oups sry Platon missed your reply.
the 360 is out and the revolution is all but finnished spec wise (too late to make any major changes).
edit: oups sry Platon missed your reply.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi guys im new to this forum but i spend alot of time here just browsing. I just wanted to add my own views about the RSX as it seems many (here and around the internet) are very sceptical or refuse to believe that Nvidia/Sony developing anything beyond a 550mhz 7800 gtx + flexIO interface.
Now dont get me wrong such a setup would be very powerful certainly and compare favourably with the 360 but given the time in development nvidia and sonys technology expertise and Kuturagi overseeing the project i think as people here have already said the final hardware will be well beyond anything we've seen before.
Now for all the sceptics, try thinking outside the box for a second and just look at the available information. Many say the info for the RSX hasn't been released yet, True. But look more into what has been released then make your own judgements.
Just to remind you about the information available
"RSX will be the most powerful GPU ever built"
"RSX will have OVER 300 million transistors"
"RSX will have a farm of multiway programmable shading processors"
"RSX will be able to process 136 shader ops per cycle simultaneously"
This was taken from E3 during the Jen huang speech. Notice he says a farm of these so called multiway programmable shaders with each able to process 136 shader ops a cycle simultaneously. I'll let you tech guys ponder the graphical possiblities. Certainly the 7800 GTX cannot do this. Ive seen a number of mockup diagrams recently of a cutdown version G70x (working like the PPE handing out work and doing AA) coupled to a number of shader processors 4-8 in a very CELL like arrangment. And this FARM of shader processors would certainly suit such a plan. Now obviously they cant just outright give you full details because of competition with ATI and NDAs but a few hints are there.
I'm also hoping the shader processors can benefit from using similar ideas and technologies to the SPEs and maybe clocked differently to the G70x core. A 3.2Ghz clock for each shader processor would be very nice!! In fact if they also have there own work cache and linked to a EIB style bus even better.
Something else missed is the fact that Kuturagi and Jen huang have said they have similar ideas in taking graphics forward and have built a future road map with RSX being the start of that road map. Yes i'm paraphrasing slightly, cant find the link. Yes obviously its using technology from Nvidias vast IP library (again people conclude it must therefore be a 7800) but to warrant its own roadmap suggests maybe a radical change of architecture.
Also consider the fact we are still waiting for full details and specs regarding the RSX why if its a 7800+flexIO? because i feel this is something special. This doesnt need to be hidden anymore X360 is released Revolution isnt Hidef so possibly doesnt pose a graphical threat. No this technology will be used in Nvidia's next card so lips need to be tight to fit to there schedule and not give ATI any real secrets.
And no, i'm no Fanboi or some naive noob before anyone says. Ive just looked at information at hand. And if anyone knows how Kuturagi works you'll know he regards Playstation like his child, every area of the console will be nextgen.
Now dont get me wrong such a setup would be very powerful certainly and compare favourably with the 360 but given the time in development nvidia and sonys technology expertise and Kuturagi overseeing the project i think as people here have already said the final hardware will be well beyond anything we've seen before.
Now for all the sceptics, try thinking outside the box for a second and just look at the available information. Many say the info for the RSX hasn't been released yet, True. But look more into what has been released then make your own judgements.
Just to remind you about the information available
"RSX will be the most powerful GPU ever built"
"RSX will have OVER 300 million transistors"
"RSX will have a farm of multiway programmable shading processors"
"RSX will be able to process 136 shader ops per cycle simultaneously"
This was taken from E3 during the Jen huang speech. Notice he says a farm of these so called multiway programmable shaders with each able to process 136 shader ops a cycle simultaneously. I'll let you tech guys ponder the graphical possiblities. Certainly the 7800 GTX cannot do this. Ive seen a number of mockup diagrams recently of a cutdown version G70x (working like the PPE handing out work and doing AA) coupled to a number of shader processors 4-8 in a very CELL like arrangment. And this FARM of shader processors would certainly suit such a plan. Now obviously they cant just outright give you full details because of competition with ATI and NDAs but a few hints are there.
I'm also hoping the shader processors can benefit from using similar ideas and technologies to the SPEs and maybe clocked differently to the G70x core. A 3.2Ghz clock for each shader processor would be very nice!! In fact if they also have there own work cache and linked to a EIB style bus even better.
Something else missed is the fact that Kuturagi and Jen huang have said they have similar ideas in taking graphics forward and have built a future road map with RSX being the start of that road map. Yes i'm paraphrasing slightly, cant find the link. Yes obviously its using technology from Nvidias vast IP library (again people conclude it must therefore be a 7800) but to warrant its own roadmap suggests maybe a radical change of architecture.
Also consider the fact we are still waiting for full details and specs regarding the RSX why if its a 7800+flexIO? because i feel this is something special. This doesnt need to be hidden anymore X360 is released Revolution isnt Hidef so possibly doesnt pose a graphical threat. No this technology will be used in Nvidia's next card so lips need to be tight to fit to there schedule and not give ATI any real secrets.
And no, i'm no Fanboi or some naive noob before anyone says. Ive just looked at information at hand. And if anyone knows how Kuturagi works you'll know he regards Playstation like his child, every area of the console will be nextgen.
"Nerve-Damage"
Regular
^^Nice post and welcome to B3D Xen^^ 
Thanks for the replies. I'm obviously not saying this is how the RSX will turn out as for many number of reasons unknown to us it could change. But from the information released to the public so far and the complete silence on more info for the RSX its my opinion that Nvidia will use this technology in their next card and needs to keep it under wraps till the right time.
Its not like Sony have been shy so far about the technology in PS3. We know pratically everything there is to know about what many experts call a "super computer on a chip" and i mean everything, its inner workings, specs, benchmarks everything is public. They are very proud of their achievement.
And i'm aware from your replies i maybe putting myself in the firing line of some strong opinions countering my argument but ive only put the information out there on the table, now if you dont want to beleive that info thats upto you. But instead of saying it will be a 7800 Gtx+connection to Cell, read my post, watch the E3 presentation and make your conclusions with all the information available.
But I'm very excited about the possiblites of these Multiway programmable shader processors and i feel they're as important to the performance of the RSX as the SPEs are to the Cell processor. I dont want to get too over my head with numbers but can you guys even comprehend a GPU that has a Farm of these processors each able to process 136 shader ops per cycle at once times the number of processors times the final clock speed. And i hope they're like the SPE's and clock very high.
Its not like Sony have been shy so far about the technology in PS3. We know pratically everything there is to know about what many experts call a "super computer on a chip" and i mean everything, its inner workings, specs, benchmarks everything is public. They are very proud of their achievement.
And i'm aware from your replies i maybe putting myself in the firing line of some strong opinions countering my argument but ive only put the information out there on the table, now if you dont want to beleive that info thats upto you. But instead of saying it will be a 7800 Gtx+connection to Cell, read my post, watch the E3 presentation and make your conclusions with all the information available.
But I'm very excited about the possiblites of these Multiway programmable shader processors and i feel they're as important to the performance of the RSX as the SPEs are to the Cell processor. I dont want to get too over my head with numbers but can you guys even comprehend a GPU that has a Farm of these processors each able to process 136 shader ops per cycle at once times the number of processors times the final clock speed. And i hope they're like the SPE's and clock very high.
scooby_dooby
Legend
We also know this:
"The card's G70 GPU, which is more than twice as powerful as two of NVIDIA's previous top-of-the-line 6800 boards, shares a lot of similar workings with the PS3's RSX chip - only it isn't as fast. Oh, and it retails for $599.""
- NVIDIA interview with EGM
We also know that the PS3, even with just an overclocked G70 is already extremely expensive.
We also know that they have to be able to create 1-2million of these things this year, and probably 500k-1million as early as this spring.
I don't see how your theories fit in with these facts that we already know, it would cause the GPU to be much more expensive, cause them to have much lower yields, lower production capacity, and it would require a big shift for the launch title dev's who've been using a straight G70 for many months now.
"The card's G70 GPU, which is more than twice as powerful as two of NVIDIA's previous top-of-the-line 6800 boards, shares a lot of similar workings with the PS3's RSX chip - only it isn't as fast. Oh, and it retails for $599.""
- NVIDIA interview with EGM
We also know that the PS3, even with just an overclocked G70 is already extremely expensive.
We also know that they have to be able to create 1-2million of these things this year, and probably 500k-1million as early as this spring.
I don't see how your theories fit in with these facts that we already know, it would cause the GPU to be much more expensive, cause them to have much lower yields, lower production capacity, and it would require a big shift for the launch title dev's who've been using a straight G70 for many months now.
scooby_dooby said:
That quote was from PSM, and it was not from Nvidia directly (I think it was just a caption under a picture of a 7800 card they put in the magazine in the middle of the article) -- just to clarify. Nvidia has said that it is based off the G70, so I don't disagree with the point.
I'd say Sony has to be able to make upwards of ~15 million of these a year if they really expect to keep up with demand. (which more than likely means no 400-500mt chips, guys)
Well i certainly dont know all the facts, and especially the business dealings between Sony and Nvidia regarding the RSX but i can share my thoughts.
I think one the best things about PS3 is the fact many of its more expensive parts are being used and sold outside the use the console.
Not only will they sell tens of millions in PS3 with obvious reductions in price of the parts over time and optimising technology to make the parts cheaper where possible.
But also the Cell chip being sold to IBMs clients, in toshiba and sony TV's and wherever else the technology is applicable. I feel the support for Cell will keep growing.
Bluray is obviously Sonys way of securing the nextgen disc format. If this happens and especially if the format is the de facto way to view HD media thats a financial gain the Sony and others involved.
And i feel RSX being a joint development probably means a lot of the R&D was shared meaning sony owns some the technology used. But again this will be used in PS3 and i'm confident Nvidias next gen cards of the future so i feel long term its a great investment. Also if it does work like Cell ie able to use redundant parts in lower power applications thats a bonus too.
I think one the best things about PS3 is the fact many of its more expensive parts are being used and sold outside the use the console.
Not only will they sell tens of millions in PS3 with obvious reductions in price of the parts over time and optimising technology to make the parts cheaper where possible.
But also the Cell chip being sold to IBMs clients, in toshiba and sony TV's and wherever else the technology is applicable. I feel the support for Cell will keep growing.
Bluray is obviously Sonys way of securing the nextgen disc format. If this happens and especially if the format is the de facto way to view HD media thats a financial gain the Sony and others involved.
And i feel RSX being a joint development probably means a lot of the R&D was shared meaning sony owns some the technology used. But again this will be used in PS3 and i'm confident Nvidias next gen cards of the future so i feel long term its a great investment. Also if it does work like Cell ie able to use redundant parts in lower power applications thats a bonus too.
Once again.
The PS3 is a very fast and capable game console when paired with a G70-like GPU. It has a lot of hardwired features, a lot of bandwith, and the aid of a huge programmable computational capacity in the Cell CPU.
Why do you guys all want it to be even more than that?
Oh, and it's already faster then the Xbox 360 as well...
The PS3 is a very fast and capable game console when paired with a G70-like GPU. It has a lot of hardwired features, a lot of bandwith, and the aid of a huge programmable computational capacity in the Cell CPU.
Why do you guys all want it to be even more than that?
Oh, and it's already faster then the Xbox 360 as well...
This was already said in my first post if you read it. I said such an architecture would stand favourably to an x360 if it was a g70 like gpu.
This isnt about some stupid my machine is better than yours childish argument, i'm really not interested.
I put forward the information in the public arena at this present time about RSX and want to discuss these facts about RSX.
This isnt about some stupid my machine is better than yours childish argument, i'm really not interested.
I put forward the information in the public arena at this present time about RSX and want to discuss these facts about RSX.
"Nerve-Damage"
Regular
Laa-Yosh said:
Puts on rain jacket!!
Since we're all theorizing this is my money-shot:
RSX
~350 Million transistors
550Mhz
No vertex shaders (picked up by Cell)
No Purevideo
48 G70-class pixel shaders/TMU's
Intellisample
Ultrashadow
That's based on the expectation of a ~330 Million transistor, 32 pixel shader, 10 vertex-shader G71 with all the trimmings at 700Mhz.
RSX
~350 Million transistors
550Mhz
No vertex shaders (picked up by Cell)
No Purevideo
48 G70-class pixel shaders/TMU's
Intellisample
Ultrashadow
That's based on the expectation of a ~330 Million transistor, 32 pixel shader, 10 vertex-shader G71 with all the trimmings at 700Mhz.
TurnDragoZeroV2G
Regular
I thought the estimate was closer to 380 (~10million/PS pipe). :shrug:
Xen said:
I'm sorry, which information were you referring to? Everything you've listed here means absolutely zero. Well, the 300M transistors means something, but since all state of the art GPUs today seem to be around that, I don't think it tells us all that much. There really isn't much information on RSX to go on, and in the absence of that information, I'm just assuming the simplest explanation is probably the correct one (see also: Occam's Razor...yes, I said it again!).
