Consoles & Propoganda

[Carl B]

You let Sony off the hook way too easily imo.

Scooby I "let" Sony off the hook because they're never on my hook to begin with; they could call the XBox 360 a toaster on wheels or say that PS3 will take us to Jupiter and I wouldn't care, because as I've mentioned my feelings on these companies and consoles are not swayed by their hubris or outlandish claims.

XBox execs have certainly taken many a swipe at Sony and the PS3, and you know what? I'm completely absent from those threads - just as I am from the threads in which Sony takes swipes at MS. I just simply do not care.

And, what I wonder is... why do so many of you that know better to begin with care also?

As to Ed Fries in 2005 though, frankly at that point I don't think even Sony themselves knew what the resultant console would look like. He could very well have been 100% honest in his skepticism of 360, and today quite disappointed also in how PS3 turned out. I don't know personally, because I never paid attention to that interview of his back then.

 

[TheChefO]

Well, Sony perhaps should(?) be congratulated for the event, but I'd say also that they should be chastised for not realizing the price they would pay in the future. The media is of course always a bunch of idiots, certain to report anything other than technically correct information.

They report what they get/see/are told. And yes technical reporting could use a significant boost in the games media.

Chstised!? naaahhh .... cmon now! That's crazy talk!

But when it comes to the populous finding out the truth, let me point out how sometimes what the populous finds out is not the truth at all. Now, back to the quiz, and question #1, I'll change it to this:

Do you think that Kutaragi ever made a claim as to PS3 running games at 120fps? And do you think that the population thinks he made that claim? Why would either of you or the geneal pubic have come to that conclusion?

Do I think he did? Judging from other comments I would not put it outside the realm of possibility. Do I believe he could think this? Sure! Reality says otherwise though.

How would the media come to this conclusion ... misinterprited interview most likely. But honestly it goes right in line with all the rest. Kutaragi is not innocent in misleading people xbd. Intentionally or otherwise. This statement may not have been one of them, but it isn't in isolation either.

 

[TheChefO]

Scooby I "let" Sony off the hook because they're never on my hook to begin with; they could call the XBox 360 a toaster on wheels or say that PS3 will take us to Jupiter and I wouldn't care, because as I've mentioned my feelings on these companies and consoles are not swayed by their hubris or outlandish claims.

XBox execs have certainly taken many a swipe at Sony and the PS3, and you know what? I'm completely absent from those threads - just as I am from the threads in which Sony takes swipes at MS. I just simply do not care.

And, what I wonder is... why do so many of you that know better to begin with care also?

As to Ed Fries in 2005 though, frankly at that point I don't think even Sony themselves knew what the resultant console would look like. He could very well have been 100% honest in his skepticism of 360, and today quite disappointed also in how PS3 turned out. I don't know personally, because I never paid attention to that interview of his back then.

xbd - here's the issue I take with this stand. Regardless of what you yourself knew about the vids or the specs from inside info or self knowledge, it still does not excuse Sony's actions of deliberate misguiding/misinformation. That's fine if you think it was a fair tactic but fact remains it was deception to fool a populous through the media.

 

[Carl B]

Do I think he did?

Uh... yeah, that's the question for the third time - the one you still haven't answered. But I'm just going to assume that yes, you *had* thought he'd said this, and that it was one of many Sony-isms you believed had taken place; afterall, why would "The Internet" be talking about it otherwise, right? The Internet self-corrects, yeah?

Well... Internet forums are populated with the 'quasi-informed.'

Judging from other comments I would not put it outside the realm of possibility. Do I believe he could think this? Sure! Reality says otherwise though.

Oh yes, reality on 120fps certainly does say otherwise, right? Which is why it was so convenient to turn it into a pinata of the lunacy that is Kutaragi.

Let's be clear - Kutaragi is a brilliant man, and a visionary. And no, he never made a 120fps claim - not in an interview, not anywhere else. That entire rumor started via a consumer electronics conference he presented at in Japan, in which he discussed the future of display technologies (and yes, 120hz tv sets are on the horizon). A slide from that show got picked up by Western media, and them not knowing what it was - but knowing it was Kutaragi speaking - assumed that the slide meant Sony was claimign PS3 would reach 120fps by late 2007. And from there comes all the rumor and hype surrounding it - an anecdote that has been 'solidified' into fact and the common knowledge base by the Internet.

How would the media come to this conclusion ... misinterprited interview most likely. But honestly it goes right in line with all the rest. Kutaragi is not innocent in misleading people xbd. Intentionally or otherwise. This statement may not have been one of them, but it isn't in isolation either.

Well, now you know where that one came from. Ask yourself which others you might also be unclear on, and if you have a list of KK-isms you'd like to go over, we could do so and see just which ones were real, and whether they can be termed as 'insane' now from our vantage point of March 22nd, 2007.

 

[TheChefO]

Well, now you know where that one came from. Ask yourself which others you might also be unclear on, and if you have a list of KK-isms you'd like to go over, we could do so and see just which ones were real, and whether they can be termed as 'insane' now from our vantage point of March 22nd, 2007.

What and spoil all the fun? Ha! Kutaragi, has been a key figure in many a good laugh by myself and others.

"He ruins it!"
/smeagal

Interesting insight on the origin of that rumor but like I said this is one of many. I saw the detailed plans they had layed out for ps2 and the extension of the architecture to the workstation etc. but that never became reality.

 

[Nesh]

Uh... yeah, that's the question for the third time - the one you still haven't answered. But I'm just going to assume that yes, you *had* thought he'd said this, and that it was one of many Sony-isms you believed had taken place; afterall, why would "The Internet" be talking about it otherwise, right? The Internet self-corrects, yeah?

Well... Internet forums are populated with the 'quasi-informed.'



Oh yes, reality on 120fps certainly does say otherwise, right? Which is why it was so convenient to turn it into a pinata of the lunacy that is Kutaragi.

Let's be clear - Kutaragi is a brilliant man, and a visionary. And no, he never made a 120fps claim - not in an interview, not anywhere else. That entire rumor started via a consumer electronics conference he presented at in Japan, in which he discussed the future of display technologies (and yes, 120hz tv sets are on the horizon). A slide from that show got picked up by Western media, and them not knowing what it was - but knowing it was Kutaragi speaking - assumed that the slide meant Sony was claimign PS3 would reach 120fps by late 2007. And from there comes all the rumor and hype surrounding it - an anecdote that has been 'solidified' into fact and the common knowledge base by the Internet.



Well, now you know where that one came from. Ask yourself which others you might also be unclear on, and if you have a list of KK-isms you'd like to go over, we could do so and see just which ones were real, and whether they can be termed as 'insane' now from our vantage point of March 22nd, 2007.

hehe same thing happened with the "jacking into the matrix" thing which had nothing to do with the consumer PS2, but was a statement regarding his vision of the future entertainment when Sony presented the GScube displaying in real time sections of Antz, Spirits Within and guess what....the Matrix

 

[quest55720]

Without the Internet, how many of us would ever have heard anything like '2TFlops of power' to begin with? Not me, that's for sure. For better or worse, the Internet is not only the antidote for FUD, but the generator as well. Case in point: Inquirer, Deadmeat, Red Cloak, Fshie, Opa Ages

Also I don't think Shifty is saying it's 'wrong,' he's saying it's distasteful; I think we all agree there.

Considering you could see the presentation on techTV I think a lot of people knew about it with out the internet. Also during that presentation they showed the famous kill zone video which lead to days of non stop MS bashing by tech tv. Then they interviewed a guy from sony who basically said the killzone video was real time. It was horrible fud for millions to see on national TV. Lets be honest sony fooled every one in the world but a few people at beyond3d it was masterfull deceit.

 

[Lycan]

Interesting insight on the origin of that rumor but like I said this is one of many. I saw the detailed plans they had layed out for ps2 and the extension of the architecture to the workstation etc. but that never became reality.

Yes, but how would that be deceiving ? I think that Sony had big plans for the PS2 and failed, for X reason, to concrete them (especially at the etwork level) ; maybe they retracted because they saw investing on the PS3 a better option ; maybe they thought that their project would not bear fruits...
On a side note, you mentionned the PS2 as being a deception. Well, let me just tell you this : On the three consoles of last generation, PS2 was the only one to outdo its demos : people just kept shouting the machine power was a lie until they were utterly convinced, and didn't attribute that much importance to the big technical guns...Once they hitted, everybody just turned a blind eye...
So, yes, Sony is big on words, but up to now, they have just kept delievering...
Maybe they could have the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry to derail the thread even further...well, not really ! Until the masters of destiny pop up to stop us from doing so, we shall burn this thread in the flame of deception !

 

[scooby_dooby]

Scooby I "let" Sony off the hook because they're never on my hook to begin with; they could call the XBox 360 a toaster on wheels or say that PS3 will take us to Jupiter and I wouldn't care, because as I've mentioned my feelings on these companies and consoles are not swayed by their hubris or outlandish claims.

Well that's precisely my point, you do not hold them accountable at all for their sleazy tactics. All beating around the buish aside, that's exactly what it was.

I would have absolutely no problem if they said it was a toaster on wheels, they are entitled to say whatever they want. But sleaze tactics where you intentionally decieve are a totally different story, and I don't really care what company does it, it annoys the hell out of me. Mostly because there are so many people who mindlessly parrot PR.

 

[Carl B]

Considering you could see the presentation on techTV I think a lot of people knew about it with out the internet. Also during that presentation they showed the famous kill zone video which lead to days of non stop MS bashing by tech tv. Then they interviewed a guy from sony who basically said the killzone video was real time. It was horrible fud for millions to see on national TV. Lets be honest sony fooled every one in the world but a few people at beyond3d it was masterfull deceit.

Well, I never watched that, but I agree that would be massive misinformation for all those that did. What can I say? The Killzone handling was a total debacle, and Sony got the backlash deserving for such.

Well that's precisely my point, you do not hold them accountable at all for their sleazy tactics. All beating around the buish aside, that's exactly what it was.

I would have absolutely no problem if they said it was a toaster on wheels, they are entitled to say whatever they want. But sleaze tactics where you intentionally decieve are a totally different story, and I don't really care what company does it, it annoys the hell out of me. Mostly because there are so many people who mindlessly parrot PR.

Scoob now I know both you and I would derive more pleasure from harassing Russ on the RPSC sub-forum wrt topics of mutual interest, rather than going back and forth on this, but ok I'll grant you that Sony was sleazy. However, it makes me want to talk about that Major Nelson article to be focused on these vids, and that was not only sleazy, it made people stupid to read it!

I understand where you're coming from, but for me the devil everyone expects (ie PR fluff a la Sony) is much less cloak-and-dagger than the devil dressed as an angel; ie Major Nelson and Amir when these two "begrudgingly" wax poetic on their competitors. Ah, but ever are they feeling so sorry for Sony, let them tell you why...

But, hey... I give them a pass as well, and have even complemented the later on his and his partners viral marketing acumen.

 

[TheChefO]

Scoob now I know both you and I would derive more pleasure from harrassing Russ on the RPSC sub-forum wrt topics of mutual interest, rather than going back and forth on this, but ok I'll grant you that Sony was sleazy. However, it makes me want to talk about that Major Nelson article to do so, and that was not only sleazy, it made people stupid to read it!

I understand where you're coming from, but for me the devil everyone expects (ie PR fluff a la Sony) is much less dastardly than the devil dressed as an angel; ie Major Nelson and Amir on AVS when "begrudgingly" waxing poetic on their competitors.

But, hey... I give them a pass as well, and have even complemented the later on their viral marketing acumen.

Didn't the vids also make people "stupid" by believing them? Misinformation doesnt just come from a text document. Besides, the end game of the major neslon document was basicly the machines are a wash which is true. Certainly more valid than the spec sheet comparisons and vids.

 

[Carl B]

Didn't the vids also make people "stupid" by believing them? Misinformation doesnt just come from a text document. Besides, the end game of the major neslon document was basicly the machines are a wash which is true. Certainly more valid than the spec sheet comparisons and vids.

The vids made some people believe in a fantasy, but those folk didn't suddenly believe that they knew more about the world or how things worked. The Major Nelson doc, on the other hand, was presented in the context of an unbiased technical evaluation of the two processors powering the consoles. It's legacy has been people calling the SPEs DSPs, people confused as to what 'general purpose' code even is, people thinking that it's all about 'integer' performance... and thinking that Cell is worse than the XeCPU in this regard... when really it's stronger. And the problem I have with this, is that even today people will spit out that Cell is "worse" on general purpose code, or the 360 is "better" at integer math... or that the SPEs are 'just' DSPs, when they don't even know what a DSP is!

The fact that this happens now and then even on this forum is what makes me fume about it. On the other hand, no one I know still thinks that the Killzone video was realtime, so you see... the legacy of the Major Nelson doc is more vile, because it creates again the "quasi-informed" that I loathe so much.

BUT, either way... I'll note that from a strategy angle, the Major Nelson article was brilliant - and as always, brilliant moves earn respect from me on the level they were played.

 

[RobertR1]

Forget the Devil....this thread makes ME wanna cry!

 

[TheChefO]

The vids made some people believe in a fantasy, but those folk didn't suddenly believe that they knew more about the world or how things worked. The Major Nelson doc, on the other hand, was presented in the context of an unbiased technical evaluation of the two processors powering the consoles. It's legacy has been people calling the SPEs DSPs, people confused as to what 'general purpose' code even is, people thinking that it's all about 'integer' performance... and thinking that Cell is worse than the XeCPU in this regard... when really it's stronger. And the problem I have with this, is that even today people will spit out that Cell is "worse" on general purpose code, or the 360 is "better" at integer math... or that the SPEs are 'just' DSPs, when they don't even know what a DSP is!

The fact that this happens now and then even on this forum is what makes me fume about it. On the other hand, no one I know still thinks that the Killzone video was realtime, so you see... the legacy of the Major Nelson doc is more vile, because it creates again the "quasi-informed" that I loathe so much.

BUT, either way... I'll note that from a strategy angle, the Major Nelson article was brilliant - and as always, brilliant moves earn respect from me on the level they were played.

And yet ... to this day, there are still ps fanboys who believe the vids are not outside the realm of possibility because of the boundless power that is ps3 and cell. So you see it does indeed go both ways but at least the mn document was grounded in "they are a wash" which is true. If one were to play devils advocate on this document, one could say proof has been shown that indeed xb360 is better at game code ... see any port/multiplat to date with equal dev time or AM2 working on vt3 for ps3 and Sumo Digital(?) getting equal results out of xb360.

...yet where are the cgi class graphics on ps3?

 

[Deusp]

The vids made some people believe in a fantasy, but those folk didn't suddenly believe that they knew more about the world or how things worked. The Major Nelson doc, on the other hand, was presented in the context of an unbiased technical evaluation of the two processors powering the consoles. It's legacy has been people calling the SPEs DSPs, people confused as to what 'general purpose' code even is, people thinking that it's all about 'integer' performance... and thinking that Cell is worse than the XeCPU in this regard... when really it's stronger. And the problem I have with this, is that even today people will spit out that Cell is "worse" on general purpose code, or the 360 is "better" at integer math... or that the SPEs are 'just' DSPs, when they don't even know what a DSP is!

The fact that this happens now and then even on this forum is what makes me fume about it. On the other hand, no one I know still thinks that the Killzone video was realtime, so you see... the legacy of the Major Nelson doc is more vile, because it creates again the "quasi-informed" that I loathe so much.

BUT, either way... I'll note that from a strategy angle, the Major Nelson article was brilliant - and as always, brilliant moves earn respect from me on the level they were played.

It's called FUD. Everybody does it. Sony does it. MS does it. Even Nintendo does it. We'll never see the end of it.

 

[LogisticX]

Chef, let go of the agenda. Seriously.

 

[TheChefO]

Chef, let go of the agenda. Seriously.

excuse me?

 

[RobertR1]

Chef and Carl,

Are you guys discussing the influence and social responsibility of marketing tactics on a personal level or at a macro level?

If one is discussing self impact and other is debating mass consumer impact, I'm sure there will never be an end to this thread.



Personally, I pick and choose for myself what I'll buy and why I'll buy it. I skip commecials thanks the to DVR and forums are a form of entertainment. However, as to how well it influences the mass market, clearly there is substance to it or billions would not be spent doing it. The return on investment from hype, fud, grand presentations and such is very much real.

I'd rank:
Sony
MS
Nintendo

in that order of who tosses out the most shit, takes cheap shots at the competition and over promises.

 

[TheChefO]

Chef and Carl,

Are you guys discussing the influence and social responsibility of marketing tactics on a personal level or at a macro level?

If one is discussing self impact and other is debating mass consumer impact, I'm sure there will never be an end to this thread.

macro level -

Self impact for me is 0 and judging from his responses it is the same. From my perspecive, I take offense to misinformation and fud etc even if it does not effect me directly where I get the feeling xbd dismisses these infractions because he is not directly affected.

I agree with your rank order as well (currently)

 

[Carl B]

And yet ... to this day, there are still ps fanboys who believe the vids are not outside the realm of possibility because of the boundless power that is ps3 and cell.

Because those people are idiots.

So you see it does indeed go both ways but at least the mn document was grounded in "they are a wash" which is true.

Chef, the document is wrong. It is beyond wrong, it is a purposeful illusion and lie.

If one were to play devils advocate on this document, one could say proof has been shown that indeed xb360 is better at game code ... see any port/multiplat to date with equal dev time or AM2 working on vt3 for ps3 and Sumo Digital(?) getting equal results out of xb360.

...."game code?"

There is so much irony in reading that phrase here in a thread where I've been highlighting the viral FUD effort of MS. Chef Chef Chef... ok, now I mentioned that when people start quoting 'general purpose,' integer performance, and DSPs I start to get a little edgy, right? Well maybe I should have mentioned 'game code' as well.

I'm going to approach this calmly for now, and ask you simply... what is "game code" Chef?