Consoles & Propoganda

[TheChefO]

I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with xbd. The main point of argument seems tobe about which rules you think they're playing by - Rugby League or Rugby Union? TheChefO thinks the rules of the game don't allow for PR spin as a legitimate move. xbd views the game as that being one of the options of play. From those different perspectives, Sony's PR maneouvres are either clever tactical positioning (ignoring all the fumbles) or down-right cheating. And for those that think they're cheating, hostility is directed towards them.

I agree with xbd that it's an open playing field where pretty much any tactic is fair, as the competition are allowed to use the same 'dirty tricks' if they choose. Personally I'd prefer the rules were changed so that PR nonsense and FUD was dropped from the game, and I do complain about it's use - like unfair offsides in Soccer or 'Missed Balls' in Snooker. But whoever wins within the rules of the game, they've won because they played it best. Which is how I play board games - may the best cheat win!

Wait a second... you're saying you agree as long as it isn't "against the rules" and then you say you'd prefer pr/fud etc to be bannished.

The only way to achieve that is by making it illegal. (it somewhat is via "false advertising" but rarely enforced)

Sounds like you agree more with me - board game cheater!

 

[Carl B]

Firstly, @Shifty: Exactly.

For me: "May the best man win" - That is my outlook on life and on the "systems wars". I don't like backroom deals and handshakes and the rest, even though I recognize these things are a part of life and potentially difference makers. (yes, I realize MS is probably just as guilty as Sony and Nintendo for that matter. But I can't say for sure, I only know what I know)

Who is the 'best man' though, and what determines that but our own individual criteria? The companies have to serve their corporate interests first and formost; we view the game we're a "part" of as gaming-related, but in truth it's not - it's sort of a mock sideshow of what's really going on. And what's going on is companies seeking to improve the appearance of their wares in the eyes of you the consumer... and in that environment, anything goes. Is MS trying to create the best gaming console, or become profitable? Consider the fundamental difference in corporate tactics approach that brings on, even if the end goal is seemingly the same.

I disagree: If the liars won, they won, but they did not deserve to win. Big difference.

*Extremely* quick political analogy here, that I don't want to harp on and honestly doesn't belong here, but... that I want to use to illustrate this point:

Did the US administration deserve to have the Iraq war they wanted? I was against this, *never* believed the WMD claims, and always saw the tactics at the time for what they were: deception to reach an end, nevermind the merit of the end itself. Now, did they deserve to get their way? And I'll tell you that yes they did - they did because although myself and many others who felt like me were sick to our stomachs watching what was going on around us, we at the sametime couldnot be bothered to muster the effort to rally around the cause to the degree that those favoring the war were. And so it goes throughout human history...

I blame the administration, I blame the American people, and within that I blame myself. Like my previous company+media+consumer example, we are all of us responsible when we have any role to play. Now, if the world worked on your definition of 'deserved,' I would be here saying Sony "deserves" to win because out of the three consoel makers, they are the most active in pursuing technology for technology's sake, and you would say that Sony in fact "deserves" to lose because they are arrogant, care nothing for their userbase, and deceive. A Nintendo fan might say that Nintendo "deserves" to win because not only did they originate the modern console era, they are the only ones 'truly' concerned with bringing gaming back into the hearts and minds of the 'people.' So who is right and who is wrong in that world? It's all too relative. So... anyway, if you win, you earned it. How about that instead? Instead of saying 'deserve,' which has a lot of baggage associated, how about if I change it to whoever ends up winning, "earned" it?

Regarding misinformation etc, I don't want this to get out of hand either and honestly I would not dismiss evidence of misinformation from Nintendo or MS or Sony. I just think Sony has a bigger audience so what they say has more weight. (see ps2) If Nintendo crushes 360/ps3 sales this gen and has everyone's ear and overpromises (n64) there should be repercussions for that. I see the best thing that has happened in this regard is the explosion of the internet and the ability to find the truth if you seek it.

Wait were you upset at N64 as well? Man you really hold grudges Chef!

The Internet by the way I think is the best thing ever, but there's a dark side as well; it enables what I call the 'quasi-informed.' These are people who have "researched" something and think they now understand it, but actually have a worse understanding than if they knew nothing at all. Read this thread from post #67 on to see a perfect example: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39692&page=3

Agreed - we are a (small) part. On this very board when I joined I felt a very heavy bias and I felt the need to speak up in instances where I felt a properly balanced viewpoint was not being represented. Some of you guys thought (think) I was a troll etc because my views did not align with the majority but I still felt the need to offer ... balance.

I'd say B3D does have a Sony leaning, but the truth is it has little to do with gaming in the larger sense. It's a technical forum at heart, and a lot of us are simply here to discuss the architectures themselves. Where else do you have devs openly discussing the merits of one system vs the other, or members bragging about what they accomplished on their Cell simulator the other day? Interest in Cell also just plays a big part in it all, and the fact that a lot of the industry insiders here are loosely tied to the PS effort in one form or another naturally promotes an aggregation of PS-centric members. But you have some strong MS-related figures also here, and the fact is that I think so long as the discussions are technology centric and honest, the entire member base benefits regardless of their personal leaning.

Hey as long as you're ok with it, I'm ok with it.

Well, I'm enjoying it so far at least.

 

[TheChefO]

Firstly, @Shifty: Exactly.

Who is the 'best man' though, and what determines that but our own individual criteria? The companies have to serve their corporate interests first and formost; we view the game we're a "part" of as gaming-related, but in truth it's not - it's sort of a mock sideshow of what's really going on. And what's going on is companies seeking to improve the appearance of their wares in the eyes of you the consumer... and in that environment, anything goes. Is MS trying to create the best gaming console, or become profitable? Consider the fundamental difference in corporate tactics approach that brings on, even if the end goal is seemingly the same.

I won't touch the political example but I see your point and agree.

Theres a difference between marketing to increase awareness and deception. I'll leave it at that.

Now, if the world worked on your definition of 'deserved,' I would be here saying Sony "deserves" to win because out of the three consoel makers, they are the most active in pursuing technology for technology's sake, and you would say that Sony in fact "deserves" to lose because they are arrogant, care nothing for their userbase, and deceive. A Nintendo fan might say that Nintendo "deserves" to win because not only did they originate the modern console era, they are the only ones 'truly' concerned with bringing gaming back into the hearts and minds of the 'people.' So who is right and who is wrong in that world? It's all too relative. So... anyway, if you win, you earned it. How about that instead? Instead of saying 'deserve,' which has a lot of baggage associated, how about if I change it to whoever ends up winning, "earned" it?

I don't get this reasoning though. I agree Sony has is the edge in an innovative cpu. Granted it is a marvelous piece of tech, but isn't the xgpu also interesting and discussion worthy? Not only that, but I have a hard time agreeing with the "technology for technology's sake" argument. You think Bluray is there just because they like tech??? I strongly disagree but I could see how one could come to that conclusion. But you already knew I was skeptical.

Regarding "earned it" ... I suppose I can live with that - certainly better than "deserved it".

Wait were you upset at N64 as well? Man you really hold grudges Chef!

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... - not upset, just mindful. As sad as it was to see Sega get run over, and Nintendo take a back seat, Sony deserved the win that gen. They made all the right moves. They didn't win by spin/fud.

The Internet by the way I think is the best thing ever, but there's a dark side as well; it enables what I call the 'quasi-informed.' These are people who have "researched" something and think they now understand it, but actually have a worse understanding than if they knew nothing at all. Read this thread from post #67 on to see a perfect example: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39692&page=3

True but it does allow generally more informed populous. Not that the internet cannot be manipulated to serve a purpose, but it is dificult to hide the truth. If the truth is a bit fuzy and more difficult to dispute/enforce, then this will generally be reflected as well. I am Of the opinion ps3 ran into "the perfect storm" in this regard. Had this been an internetless society, I think fud and spin could have garnered more sales for PS3. But the high price on the box I think pushed people to use the widely available internet to find out what the deal was with this "ps3" and see if it was worth it. Not to say it isn't a good deal, just that people can dispell the hype and see what reality is. Not pr, hype and fud.

I'd say B3D does have a Sony leaning, but the truth is it has little to do with gaming in the larger sense. It's a technical forum at heart, and a lot of us are simply here to discuss the architectures themselves. Where else do you have devs openly discussing the merits of one system vs the other, or members bragging about what they accomplished on their Cell simulator the other day? Interest in Cell also just plays a big part in it all, and the fact that a lot of the industry insiders here are loosely tied to the PS effort in one form or another naturally promotes an aggregation of PS-centric members. But you have some strong MS-related figures also here, and the fact is that I think so long as the discussions are technology centric and honest, the entire member base benefits regardless of their personal leaning.

I can see that, however I can also see the effect of ps2 dominating last gen and it was a technical PITA to get results out of so obviuosly the sharper guys were coding on this established platform. I think this is also playing a role in the leaning/bias and over time I expect the lean to be lessened as it already has lessened significantly from the time I joined. *smile*

Well, I'm enjoying it so far at least.

Me too. *smile* Hey, you never replied to my pm!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wait a second... you're saying you agree as long as it isn't "against the rules" and then you say you'd prefer pr/fud etc to be bannished.

The only way to achieve that is by making it illegal. (it somewhat is via "false advertising" but rarely enforced)

Sounds like you agree more with me - board game cheater!

In Soccer, it's against the rules to approach goal with the ball when there's less than two opponents between you and it - that's Offside. That's the rule. Sometimes teams use that rule to create an 'offside trap', running the defence up to leave the attackers offside and unable to receive the ball. It's a rule a lot of people don't like. Now if a team wins at football by playing the offside trap, they deserve to win. They're playing within the rules of the game and every other team is free to do the same, so it's all fair; it's all equal. That doesn't stop people from complaining about the existence of that rule, consider it 'unfair' (wrongly, because fairness is all about equality, and all teams are equal in the rules they play by), and want it changed. I can watch a game, see my side lose by the offside trap, and complain bitterly - yet I accept the outcome that the other team won by outplaying my team even if only on the tactics.

With PR and marketting, it's a level playingfield. It is fair. There's no cheating, because anything one side does, the other side are free to do. If Sony release a marketting campaign that brainwashes 100 million people into buying an inferior product, they deserve to win - MS and Nintendo should have done that themselves. I can still begrudge it as a tactic and prefer that the rules were different, and products could only be advertised and sold on features, but they still deserve to win.

However, I do consider it unfair when the playing-field isn't level, specifically when a company has masses of cash to wield. If Sony and MS want to throw money around trying to get their products to sell, that's fine because they're both big and able to dish it out in equal measure. I don't like when a small(er) company has a product or service and is outcompeted simple because the rival had more cash and used that, especially in bullying ways that are disrespectful, such as stealing technology knowing the defender just can't afford to protect themselves. That's not a level playing field. This doesn't apply to the console wars at all though. MS and Sony and Nintendo can invest in whatever weapons of mass commercialisation they want. None is the financial underdog too poor to invest in clever marketting, viral ad campaigns, buy out celebs and invite them to parties, buy developers and exclusives, etc.

 

[Carl B]

I don't get this reasoning though. I agree Sony has is the edge in an innovative cpu. Granted it is a marvelous piece of tech, but isn't the xgpu also interesting and discussion worthy? Not only that, but I have a hard time agreeing with the "technology for technology's sake" argument. You think Bluray is there just because they like tech??? I strongly disagree but I could see how one could come to that conclusion. But you already knew I was skeptical.

It's not about Blu-ray, the components in the PS3, or any of that indivdually or by itself. It's about SCEI creating the EyeToy before there were game ideas for it, funding research into areas that don't have immediate monetary potential, trying to create a chip that would not only power the PS3 but power everything from supercomputers to televisions as well, actively seeking to allow Linux and development on such, and partnering with Stanford to bring folding to PS3 just because they could. This is just some of the prominent stuff as well, there's a lot more subtle behind-the-scenes action that goes on. The funding of off-the-beaten path games plays into this as well. But this is not something you'll see a lot of at MS or Nintendo - R&D dollars spent on ideas that have no clear path to monetization. I like the stance: invent the thing, then we'll figure out what we can do with it. I don't see MS take risks with their money like that, and frankly now that the whole Kaz/Stringer/Kutaragi thing has happened, I'm worried about whether Sony will continue to themselves.

It was a division run by engineers - what else can I say? And it reflected it. Which is why I stand by admiration of Sony on this front.

True but it does allow generally more informed populous. Not that the internet cannot be manipulated to serve a purpose, but it is dificult to hide the truth. If the truth is a bit fuzy and more difficult to dispute/enforce, then this will generally be reflected as well. I am Of the opinion ps3 ran into "the perfect storm" in this regard. Had this been an internetless society, I think fud and spin could have garnered more sales for PS3. But the high price on the box I think pushed people to use the widely available internet to find out what the deal was with this "ps3" and see if it was worth it. Not to say it isn't a good deal, just that people can dispell the hype and see what reality is. Not pr, hype and fud.

Well Sony certainly did encounter a perfect storm, I don't debate you there. But I think ignorance fueld that backlash as much as knowledge did.

Me too. *smile* Hey, you never replied to my pm!

Yeah... I just only have so much time in my day, y'know?

I don't agree with the entirety of your predictions, but I'll say that for when you made them, they seem to be a lot more along that road than a lot of other predictions that were being made back then. For my part, I don't have any better predictions to make myself either, I just think that there's still a lot that can happen going forward this gen.

 

[TheChefO]

In Soccer, it's against the rules to approach goal with the ball when there's less than two opponents between you and it - that's Offside. That's the rule. Sometimes teams use that rule to create an 'offside trap', running the defence up to leave the attackers offside and unable to receive the ball. It's a rule a lot of people don't like. Now if a team wins at football by playing the offside trap, they deserve to win. They're playing within the rules of the game and every other team is free to do the same, so it's all fair; it's all equal. That doesn't stop people from complaining about the existence of that rule, consider it 'unfair' (wrongly, because fairness is all about equality, and all teams are equal in the rules they play by), and want it changed. I can watch a game, see my side lose by the offside trap, and complain bitterly - yet I accept the outcome that the other team won by outplaying my team even if only on the tactics.

With PR and marketting, it's a level playingfield. It is fair. There's no cheating, because anything one side does, the other side are free to do. If Sony release a marketting campaign that brainwashes 100 million people into buying an inferior product, they deserve to win - MS and Nintendo should have done that themselves. I can still begrudge it as a tactic and prefer that the rules were different, and products could only be advertised and sold on features, but they still deserve to win.

However, I do consider it unfair when the playing-field isn't level, specifically when a company has masses of cash to wield. If Sony and MS want to throw money around trying to get their products to sell, that's fine because they're both big and able to dish it out in equal measure. I don't like when a small(er) company has a product or service and is outcompeted simple because the rival had more cash and used that, especially in bullying ways that are disrespectful, such as stealing technology knowing the defender just can't afford to protect themselves. That's not a level playing field. This doesn't apply to the console wars at all though. MS and Sony and Nintendo can invest in whatever weapons of mass commercialisation they want. None is the financial underdog too poor to invest in clever marketting, viral ad campaigns, buy out celebs and invite them to parties, buy developers and exclusives, etc.

Mindshare.

Anyone can say anything but when you have 100million previous customers, your voice will be heard over one with ~25million previuos customers.

Regarding the usage of fud/pr/etc we are 100% on the same page - I think it's wrong and would like it to stop but recognize it as a tool in the battle. the good thing is, the consumer has the antidote through the internet.

 

[Carl B]

Regarding the usage of fud/pr/etc we are 100% on the same page - I think it's wrong and would like it to stop but recognize it as a tool in the battle. the good thing is, the consumer has the antidote through the internet.

Without the Internet, how many of us would ever have heard anything like '2TFlops of power' to begin with? Not me, that's for sure. For better or worse, the Internet is not only the antidote for FUD, but the generator as well. Case in point: Inquirer, Deadmeat, Red Cloak, Fshie, Opa Ages

Also I don't think Shifty is saying it's 'wrong,' he's saying it's distasteful; I think we all agree there.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Regarding the usage of fud/pr/etc we are 100% on the same page - I think it's wrong and would like it to stop but recognize it as a tool in the battle. the good thing is, the consumer has the antidote through the internet.

Ha ha ha ha ha! That's like saying 'we have the tools to stop death and destruction - they're called Nuclear Weapons'! The Internet is the Stellar Convertor (see Master of Orion 2 for explanation) of the FUD world. To those who don't follow the consoles, most FUD has no effect whatsoever, until their internet-educated buddies tell them how it is because 'this blog site said so-and-so'. The internet has spawned the culture of rush-journalism and there's more misinformation now than ever. B3D sheds light on the truth by being an open discussion forum with intelligent contributes and excellent conduct with great modding to keep up the troublesome riff-raff, but it's one of the very few positive applications of the internet that counters PR FUDding.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

on Gears of War - it's not the engine or the 360 that makes that game beautiful - it's the work of the artists

Now just pause for a second and imagine a game that has the same artists, but has a better engine and makes better use of the x360...

 

[TheChefO]

It was a division run by engineers - what else can I say? And it reflected it. Which is why I stand by admiration of Sony on this front.

Actually it was a company ran by engineers. I LOVED that Sony. I have a ES9 series receiver and a first gen Sony DVD player to prove it The Sony with the engineers in the back of the room and the PR puppets spitting "..." I don't like that one so much. I like the vision, but the product has not matched for a while now ... They do seem to be heading back in the right direction for what it's worth. :smile: Seems every once in a while all the great ones fall and learn from their mistakes and come back fighting. (see Nintendo... don't look at Sega yet )

Well Sony certainly did encounter a perfect storm, I don't debate you there. But I think ignorance fueld that backlash as much as knowledge did.

Agreed - but where did this ignorance/misinformation come from? ...

Yeah... I just only have so much time in my day, y'know?

I don't agree with the entirety of your predictions, but I'll say that for when you made them, they seem to be a lot more along that road than a lot of other predictions that were being made back then. For my part, I don't have any better predictions to make myself either, I just think that there's still a lot that can happen going forward this gen.

Agreed.
I forgot about that prediction until I went to look up my buddy's email address. Not too shabby if I do say so myself.

 

[TheChefO]

Without the Internet, how many of us would ever have heard anything like '2TFlops of power' to begin with? Not me, that's for sure. For better or worse, the Internet is not only the antidote for FUD, but the generator as well. Case in point: Inquirer, Deadmeat, Red Cloak, Fshie, Opa Ages

Also I don't think Shifty is saying it's 'wrong,' he's saying it's distasteful; I think we all agree there.

again - where did this "2tflops" come from??

xbd & Shifty,

By "internet" I mean all sources. This site is on the internet. If one looks hard enough, one can find the truth. Back in the day, gaming info came from mags (misinformed to say the least).

I remember back before ultra64 had a name change Diehard gamer was claiming the Nintendo box would run 100k poly/sec ... raytraced!

Today, we would laugh at such a thing as it is easy to disprove. Back then, that was the source. End of story.

 

[Carl B]

Actually it was a company ran by engineers. I LOVED that Sony. I have a ES9 series receiver and a first gen Sony DVD player to prove it The Sony with the engineers in the back of the room and the PR puppets spitting "..." I don't like that one so much. I like the vision, but the product has not matched for a while now ... They do seem to be heading back in the right direction for what it's worth. :smile: Seems every once in a while all the great ones fall and learn from their mistakes and come back fighting. (see Nintendo... don't look at Sega yet )

Well, that's all well and good, but I really am just talking about the gaming division. It is and has been run by engineers until now; with the recent Kaz/Ken moves, I don't know. But that engineering "soul" has come through for me clearly in all the press conferences soem others liek to dismiss as "ranting."

Agreed - but where did this ignorance/misinformation come from? ...

Uh, well I think I pointed out some of the sources for you.

again - where did this "2tflops" come from??

...Today, we would laugh at such a thing as it is easy to disprove...

I'm going to highlight this, because... you know I can actually tell you how Sony got that 2 TFlops number, y'know? It was never a 'lie,' it was just always meaningless. MS announced 1TFlop at the show, right? Do they get off the hook in your mind because they arbitrarily ended up at a lower crazy number?

 

[Carl B]

Now just pause for a second and imagine a game that has the same artists, but has a better engine and makes better use of the x360...

Sounds to me like an awesome game!

 

[TheChefO]

Well, that's all well and good, but I really am just talking about the gaming division. It is and has been run by engineers until now; with the recent Kaz/Ken moves, I don't know. But that engineering "soul" has come through for me clearly in all the press conferences soem others liek to dismiss as "ranting."

Engineering insight, I like. Selling dreams/fantasies is ok, as long as the truth is out there to balance it. If the dream/fantasy is in line with reality, then great. If not, it needs to be corected for what it is. (ps2)

Uh, well I think I pointed out some of the sources for you.

indeed

I'm going to highlight this, because... you know I can actually tell you how Sony got that 2 TFlops number, y'know? It was never a 'lie,' it was just always meaningless. MS announced 1TFlop at the show, right? Do they get off the hook in your mind because they arbitrarily ended up at a lower crazy number?

I think you're being a bit naive here xbd. There was a very clear meaning behind the number and the timing and the vids. Hey you know they did a great job because they got great press from it and to this day they still have some people believing the hype. Personally, I like reality.

I still think the machine has great potential and Cell is a great arch that will strut it's stuff in time, but there is a very big gap between what they were selling and intending with the 2tflop and the like along with the vids, and reality.

That's why I love this site! Because we have knowledgable members that don't fall for the hype and stay grounded in reality.

 

[Carl B]

Engineering insight, I like. Selling dreams/fantasies is ok, as long as the truth is out there to balance it. If the dream/fantasy is in line with reality, then great. If not, it needs to be corected for what it is. (ps2)

I'm going to put you through a micro-quiz here; all Sony related, and all FUD... but on what level, and by whom?

1) 120fps - what is the misconception behind this?

2) 4D world; what does this mean to you, and did Sony "lie"?

I think you're being a bit naive here xbd. There was a very clear meaning behind the number and the timing and the vids. Hey you know they did a great job because they got great press from it and to this day they still have some people believing the hype. Personally, I like reality.

I still think the machine has great potential and Cell is a great arch that will strut it's stuff in time, but there is a very big gap between what they were selling and intending with the 2tflop and the like along with the vids, and reality.

Am I naive, or am I knowledgable? Because personally I never bought into those videos, never got upset at 2TFlops claims, or any of that (though I did get upset at people talking about 2 TFLops claims). If the issue here is 2TFlops, let's keep it apples to apples - to which I say, what do you think about MS' 1 TFlops claim? If it's about the videos, then I'll be ahppy to discuss those as well. The fact is, CGI target renders have been the norm at industry trade shows like E3 up until that point - Sony didn't do anything unexpected. But it received a hyperactive amount of attention, generated more interest than Sony I'm sure even wanted, and summarily blew up around them as the 15-year olds that populate gaming forums came to the realization that they had been 'deceived.' God help us all from ever going back to the Killzone 2 debates... (to be fair, Sony was *way* too cagey about giving a straight response to questions on that demo, and I shake my head at their handling of that event)

But nevertheless, I consider the 2Tflops statements and the render vids to be two entirely different points of contention, even if you feel they were used to play off of each other in that setting (which I agree with).

That's why I love this site! Because we have knowledgable members that don't fall for the hype and stay grounded in reality.

Yes, this I agree with. When you don't let yourself get lifted up by hype, you don't come crashing down. And you also don't get severely embittered.

 

[scooby_dooby]

If the issue here is 2TFlops, let's keep it apples to apples - to which I say, what do you think about MS' 1 TFlops claim? If it's about the videos, then I'll be ahppy to discuss those as well. The fact is, CGI target renders have been the norm at industry trade shows like E3 up until that point - Sony didn't do anything unexpected.

Couple points:

1- MS released their BS tflop number first, Sony then released their 2x bigger number. It was a clear statement that our system is twice as powerful, especially taken with their whole speil of how 'flop is the defining measurment of power this generation'

2- CG renders are indeed standard. CG renders that purposefully fake gameplay, from a false first person perspective, and which are 'alluded' to being realtime are not standard. That's a blatant attempt at deception.

 

[Carl B]

Couple points:

1- MS released their BS tflop number first, Sony then released their 2x bigger number. It was a clear statement that our system is twice as powerful, especially taken with their whole speil of how 'flop is the defining measurment of power this generation'

Well, so there you go - if MS never came with their Flops figure, Sony wouldn't have doubled up and done the same. We all know where this *really* comes from, and it's MS not wanting to seem "out-spec'd" by Cell in terms of Flops, and Sony in turn saying... alright, anything and everything... let's get it counted to counter this number. So, I do indeed absolve Sony of playing a stupid game that MS was also playing. The supposed would-be Cell vs XeCPU Flops figure that set that debacle in motion would have been a perfectly valid (and honest) claim to make.

That's not to say I absolve those that bought into it mind you; believe me every post I ever wrote on the matter was from the perspective of: ignore this smokescreen.

2- CG renders are indeed standard. CG renders that purposefully fake gameplay, from a false first person perspective, and which are 'alluded' to being realtime are not standard. That's a blatant attempt at deception.

Well, let's just say I'll meet you halfway between "standard" and "blatant attempt at deception," and that there are a lot of shades of grey in between. But obviously, when the currency has no value, and you bank on it, it bites you in the ass; Sony got their backlash for being unclear on the nature of those videos.

 

[TheChefO]

I'm going to put you through a micro-quiz here; all Sony related, and all FUD... but on what level, and by whom?

1) 120fps - what is the misconception behind this?

2) 4D world; what does this mean to you, and did Sony "lie"?

I honestly couldn't tell you other than to say Kutaragi probably has the best intentions when he speaks but his ideas/dreams do not always match reality. That's fine as long as the dream part is followed up with the reality part which the vast majority of the time does not happen in the media.

Am I naive, or am I knowledgable?
But nevertheless, I consider the 2Tflops statements and the render vids to be two entirely different points of contention, even if you feel they were used to play off of each other in that setting (which I agree with).

Intentions.
Camera viewpoint.
Timing.

Yes, this I agree with. When you don't let yourself get lifted up by hype, you don't come crashing down. And you also don't get severely embittered.

Are you implying I'm bitter???

Seriously, many people do not know any better and honestly without this site I probably still wouldn't. The majority of the media took that event in hook line and sinker. Exactly as intended. I suppose they should be congratulated for this effort as it was clearly successful, however I also have to congratulate the (majority) populous for finding the truth on the matter.

 

[Carl B]

Seriously, many people do not know any better and honestly without this site I probably still wouldn't. The majority of the media took that event in hook line and sinker. Exactly as intended. I suppose they should be congratulated for this effort as it was clearly successful, however I also have to congratulate the (majority) populous for finding the truth on the matter.

Well, Sony perhaps should(?) be congratulated for the event, but I'd say also that they should be chastised for not realizing the price they would pay in the future. The media is of course always a bunch of idiots, certain to report anything other than technically correct information.

But when it comes to the populous finding out the truth, let me point out how sometimes, what the populous "finds out" is not the truth at all. Now, back to the quiz, and question #1, I'll change it to this:

Do you think that Kutaragi ever made a claim as to PS3 running games at 120fps? And do you think that the population thinks he made that claim?

Now, why would either you or the general public have come to that conclusion?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, Sony perhaps should(?) be congratulated for the event, but I'd say also that they should be chastised for not realizing the price they would pay in the future. The media is of course always a bunch of idiots, certain to report anything other than technically correct information.

You let Sony off the hook way too easily imo.

Ed Fries was interviewed at E3 2005, after viewing the Sony presentation, he was extremelt skepticle about the power of the 360, and felt clearly that it was going to be the inferior system based on Sony's presentation.

Now, Ed Fries is no idiot. Sony bullshited everyone, and the sooner we just call a spade a spade, and quit making excuses for them, the sooner this argument can die.