Computex ARM Netbook Frenzy

[Arun]

Well you're right I don't care about ARM netbooks. I prefer ultraportables like OQO did before they went bankrupt. Besides I think that ultraportables(Pocketable Computing Device as once qualcomm called those types of devices) could become even more popular then netbooks. Considering small size and good performance.

I don't know, imo that's either a big smartphone (see: one of the toshiba tg-01 derivatives coming later this year) which is good or a UMPC that is neither pocketable nor very big and that's bad. Fwiw I do believe and hope that smartphones will get bigger.

Even if they use GPU for browser it will be smoother but I don't believe it will make it render sites faster at least as fast as omap3 or snapdragon.

Probably, but my point is that it *might* be 'good enough'. We'll see, tbh I'd be more intetested in one of those $99 7" WiFi-only SKUs...

 

[Wishmaster]

I don't know, imo that's either a big smartphone (see: one of the toshiba tg-01 derivatives coming later this year) which is good or a UMPC that is neither pocketable nor very big and that's bad. Fwiw I do believe and hope that smartphones will get bigger.

I think that toshiba k01(the one with keyboard and capacitive touchscreen) is exactly what ultraportable should be. Big screen(but not too big), fast CPU, good graphics and multimedia if it only has some kind of video output(preferably HDMI) and USB host option it may become the uber smartphone. Hopefully capacitive screen means upgrade to wm7 when available...

Probably, but my point is that it *might* be 'good enough'. We'll see, tbh I'd be more intetested in one of those $99 7" WiFi-only SKUs...

Good for browsing the web and occasionally something more but not really my type of device

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Ok, but people buy what accommodates their need.

People with limited vision or needing extra-large keyboards won't buy a "netbook"; that's just not a valid argument. They probably wouldn't even buy a laptop, unless it came in a 17" variety. People who need to develop databases and generate rich hi-def content won't want the tiny form factor either. Nor will hardcore gamers.

I keep hearing arguments applied to Netbooks that don't even exist -- people who have these needs aren't even in the market for a netbook! It's like saying that the heft of a full-size case on a desktop will push away those folks who want mobility -- you know what, if they want mobility, the size of a desktop case isn't going to dissuade them from a desktop platform, it's simply not even in their scope of options.

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook. I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.

If they change DPI settings or lower the resolution they get basically almost no screen area.

Regards,
SB

 

[Entropy]

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook. I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.

Most elderly can read a newspaper. If the type size is similar, you're OK.

We still don't know how this segment will develop. Pocket size computing will be owned by phones for obvious reasons. The "netbook" will be defined by a larger screen size than what is practical for phones.

Performance, even though many here are interested in that aspect, is hardly the most critical factor - battery life, size, weight, screen type, ergonomics, keyboard or not, output capabilities, ruggedness, connectivity options et cetera are all easily as important.

One thing to remember when it comes to performance is that phones will be an increasing proportion of internet access - sites and technologies that don't work well with phones will decline. If you look at netbooks as more capable phones (rather than cut-down PCs), the implication is that performance won't be much of an issue, anything that works with a phone will work just as well or better with a netbook.

 

[Albuquerque]

That's exactly what I was saying, you brought up the point that older people don't need anything more than a netbook.

Where did I say that? I gave an example, but I made no wide sweeping generalizations that "old people = netbook."

I was just pointing out that netbooks aren't really all that useful for a lot of older people since the screen is too small to have good legibility for them.

A lot of young people have similar issues, you don't see me saying that netbooks are crap for young people either.

You have provided just one more example of making excuses that don't apply. People who have vision difficulty won't buy a device with a small display, whether it be a netbook or a phone or a television. Why are you suggesting that they would? Do you decry cellular phones that don't provide 4" tall screens for the digits also? Do you decry alarm clocks that don't meet the 4" tall numerics for the same reason?

Do you understand why your example is flawed? Netbooks meet a growing demand for highly mobile light computing. Complaining that highly mobile light computing devices can't encode video at high bitrates and high speed, or complaining that small form factors are bad for people with bad vision, or complaining that they aren't suited for wheel chocks like your 17" luggable platform is a non-issue, because that's not the market they are intended for.

If someone with terrible myopia (like myself) who wants to encode videos with the h.264 codec in 1080P at "full speed", while also playing 3D MMORPG's in their fullest quality somehow goes to Best Buy and buys a 9" netbook, they're stupid.

Why are people complaining about how underpowered or "bad" netbooks are, when all the examples they sling at them don't even apply to that entire market?

 

[NRP]

An uninformed question: Do netbooks come with MS Word/Excel?

I have a need for a laptop replacement at home, mainly for web surfing but I'd also like to take some work home with me once in a while. Would a currently available netbook meet my needs?

 

[silent_guy]

An uninformed question: Do netbooks come with MS Word/Excel?

I have a need for a laptop replacement at home, mainly for web surfing but I'd also like to take some work home with me once in a while. Would a currently available netbook meet my needs?

No, they don't come with word/excel. (At least, my Samsung NC10 didn't, but it's the same for others...) Some netbooks come with OpenOffice preinstalled.

I love the fact that my netbook fits on the table of a cramped airplane seat and has ~5 hours of movie play in it on a single battery charge, but at home, where battery life is a non-issue, I always go back to my regular laptop. You can get a very decent full size notebook now for the same price from pretty much all major brands.

 

[Albuquerque]

An uninformed question: Do netbooks come with MS Word/Excel?

I have a need for a laptop replacement at home, mainly for web surfing but I'd also like to take some work home with me once in a while. Would a currently available netbook meet my needs?

Most machines don't come with the Microsoft Office suite (ie, word, excel, outlook, power point, et al) unless you specifically order it at a separate cost.

As for comfortably being able to perform Word / Excel tasks and web surfing? Absolutely. My eyes are pretty shite (I'm ridiculously nearsided, to the point of legal blindness) and I still didn't mind working on a 10" HP2140 netbook. I had it loaded with the Office 2007 suite (Outlook, Word, Excel) and it had no issues. I also used it with IE7 to browse this forum and other forums, OWA (outlook web access) and a few other misc websites like YouTube and Break.com.

It was an eval unit for my company, so we had our entire image on it -- XP Pro SP3, Symantec Endpoint Protection (which is a HOG), Cisco VPN, our AT&T broadband software and USB modem, encrypting file system enabled, and all the 'standard apps' that all our machines get (Adobe Reader, Shockwave, Flash, Java, MS Communicator 2007, blah blah blah)

The only relatively slow part was just the boot process (the eleventy brazillion services we load don't help it); once booted the machine is very usable. Our HP2140 eval was an N270, 160GB drive, 1Gb ram, Intel 950 GMA setup.

 

[NRP]

Thanks for the input. I admit the netbook concept is pretty appealing, but I'll take a look at smaller more power efficient laptops too. However, if I can get a netbook with MS Office and long battery life, I'll likely go that route.

 

[Blazkowicz]

compared to older desktops with a better CPU, netbooks actually have good specs (typically pentium 3 1GHz or pentium 4 2GHz w/ 256 or 512M, and a 20GB or 40GB drive).
We've forgotten than 1GB is a large amount of ram for most tasks. And even a modern 5400 rpm 2.5" drive might be better than an old 7200 rpm with 10% the density.

 

[Albuquerque]

Based on bringing several of our netbook eval units home with me, my wife just purchased a Dell Mini 10v with the 6-cell battery, 160Gb drive, N270, 1Gb of ram, webcam, bluetooth, wireless and WinXP Pro for $329 incl. shipping and tax with my company's EPP discount.

For her website maintenance, photo resizing and Excel work, it's good for just a bit over 8 hours of life. The 6-cell battery is a bit obnoxious looking (not as sleek as the rest of the unit) but it actually helps quite a bit when sitting on a flat surface as it props the back of the keyboard up. For her small business traveling needs, it's absolutely perfect.

 

[darkblu]

a great thread there, Arun! thanks a bunch for the info-hub OP.

so the arm netbook/mid wave is finally here, eh? who'd have thought! ; )

personally, i'm glad to see the tegra (aside from the ce of which i have no use, but that's mendable). the nvidia platform goes with a well-balanced multimedia performance, which is not always true in those power-sensitive segments. and i have zero concerns of the cpu choice - a well synergized arm11 + gpu could be overall a more enjoyable platform than a more powerful cpu but crippled gpu subsystem (which may not be even the gpu's fault, but more how it's integrated).

also, i largely share Entropy's view the subject - people need real computational power on the go, and running around with a power plug does not count as such. what most people understand of 'computational power on the go' is taking out the device out of their pocket/bag, close-to-instantaneous on-line status, doing their session of browsing/light doc editing/gaming (editing photos? how about molecular synthesis?), and then stashing it away in the same instantaneous manner. the less power-supply concerns in the process - the better the experience.

yes, there will always be the power users, who may do unorthodox things with their pocketables (running specialized apps, doing sw development on the go, etc) but those users usually know exactly what they're doing, so they would hardly find themselves in situations where their hw does not meet their expectations.

 

[Ailuros]

I know it's OT but I fooled around the other day at work with a colleague's iPhone. The screen is still too small for my taste for browsing (despite it being amongst the largest in its league) and no zooming in isn't very practical for me. However its battery life for browsing was quite good from what I could see.

I could very well imagine that some sort of future tablet PC/MID or whatever you'd want to call it with a way larger screen could do quite well for intermediate on the go multimedia/browsing without draining the battery too much. And yes that's irrelevant to the manufacturer or the underlying technology.

 

[pcchen]

I know it's OT but I fooled around the other day at work with a colleague's iPhone. The screen is still too small for my taste for browsing (despite it being amongst the largest in its league) and no zooming in isn't very practical for me. However its battery life for browsing was quite good from what I could see.

iPhone can zoom in (via its famous "multi-touch"), but its reaction can be slow at times especially when browsing complex web pages.

 

[wco81]

It's not clear if the slow loading or sluggish response is more the data connection speed or the CPU or both.

Certainly faster processors and more RAM will help, but maybe not with the battery life.

 

[pcchen]

It's not clear if the slow loading or sluggish response is more the data connection speed or the CPU or both.

Certainly faster processors and more RAM will help, but maybe not with the battery life.

The slowness I mentioned is more about CPU speed, because the page was loaded completely, but it apparently took some time to render it (such as, for example, after zooming in or zooming out).

iPhone's browser is already quite "smart" in handling these. For example, when zooming in, it does a quick image based zoom in at first, which can be done quite quickly, then redraw the content later. This allows a better feel of interaction and also easier to see which portion is zoomed.

Unfortunately, the performance of WiFi connection on iPhone is not very good. For some reason it's slower than expected. But of course battery life is probably a major concern here and may take precedence over performance in design.

 

[Ailuros]

iPhone can zoom in (via its famous "multi-touch"), but its reaction can be slow at times especially when browsing complex web pages.

My point was that I personally wouldn't read even an article on an iPhone despite the zoom capability. For quick browsing tasks (like checking an e-mail for instance) it's adequate.

But of course battery life is probably a major concern here and may take precedence over performance in design.

I think it can last up to nearly 2 hours while browsing.

 

[darkblu]

My point was that I personally wouldn't read even an article on an iPhone despite the zoom capability. For quick browsing tasks (like checking an e-mail for instance) it's adequate.

i've read hundreds of pages on the iphone's browser and pdf viewer. it's quite a capable e-print device.

 

[wco81]

I would prefer to read on something with a larger screen too.

It's a tradeoff between pocketability and legibility.

There are a lot of eBook apps. and a lot of Mobile Safari usage.

So enough people with good eyes.

 

[pc999]

Sorry for the question, but how smartbooks (Snapdragon) performance is against Atom or Nano?

I just saw this

Technical Features for QSD8x50 chipsets

The QSD8x50 platform consists of the QSD8250™ which supports GSM, GPRS, EDGE, HSPA networks while the QSD8650™ supports both CDMA2000 1X, 1xEV-DO Rel 0/A/B, GSM, GPRS, EDGE, HSPA networks. Both chipsets include:
1 GHz CPU
600MHz DSP
Integrated 3G mobile broadband
Support for Wi-Fi® and Bluetooth® connectivity
Built-in seventh-generation gpsOne® engine with Standalone-GPS and Assisted-GPS modes
High-definition (720p) video decode, and multiple video codec support
High-performance 3D graphics – up to 22M triangles/sec and 133M 3D pixels/sec
High-resolution up to WXGA (1280x720) display support
12-megapixel camera support
Multiple audio codecs: (AAC+, eAAC+, AMR, FR, EFR, HR, WB-AMR, G.729a, G.711, AAC stereo encode)
Support for mobile broadcast TV (MediaFLO™, DVB-H and ISDB-T)
Support for Windows Mobile®, Android, and a number of Linux®-based operating systems
Qualcomm’s hybrid mode alternative solution


Technical Features for QSD8672 chipsets

The single-chip, dual-CPU QSD8672™ includes most of the above features, in addition to:
Dual CPUs, up to 1.5 GHz for faster response and processing
Low-power 45nm process technology for higher integration and performance
Higher-resolution WSXGA (1440 x 900) display support
High-definition (1080p) video recording and playback
Support for HSPA+ networks - 28 Mbps downloads and 11 Mbps uploads
Supports CDMA2000 1X, 1xEV-DO Rel 0/A/B networks
Improved 3D graphics - up to 80M triangles/sec and 500M+ 3D pixels/sec

http://www.qctconnect.com/products/snapdragon.html

http://www.hellosmartbook.com/

At least in the 3D it seems very high (way higer than a PS2/GC/XB), will we get last gen games in there?

How about general CPU performance in eg audio/video edition and the such? (I am "guessing" that the QSD8672 will be around twice as fast, as I think I have read somehere the ARM CPU is faster per clock)

If they are better than Atom and will really sell around 200$, there is a real chance of them getting a lot of my PC time.

Dual core in early 2010? That is really nice.