Comparing different display technologies

[Tahir2]

What is the best display technology for the consumer right now for both SD and HD material?

1. PDP - Plasma Display Panel
2. DLP - Digital Light Processing
3. LCoS - Liquid Crystal on Silicon
4. LCD - Liquid Crystal Display

By best display I am talking about resolution, contrast ratio and brightness as well as maintenance (burn-in issues, image retention etc) and lastly cost. The rest is down to the scaler and connections which vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Right now my feelings are that Plasma screens offer the best display but are the most costly. SD and HD materal can look good. The problems are burn-in and image retention - gas life and other such problems seem to be a relatively small issue now. Getting a display that is 42" or less at a true HD resolution is nearly impossible in the UK. Most screens offer 1024*768 XGA resolution (Panasonic, Pioneer, LG, Samsung) or 1024*1024i (Hitachi and Philips).

LCD displays seem to excel at pronouncing the artefacts present in low resolution programs and you get a strange moire type effect with non-HD material. They also lack brightness and can suffer from poor contrast ratio's in comparison to other technologies. The screen size does not go higher than 40" before prices sky rocket. They in general do have amongst the best native resolution. To their credit they are very thin and can look amazing with the right material but as a general TV I think they have too many shortcomings.

DLP sets to me look good, you get the beautiful picture of a plasma display but at a lower cost and similar screen size. DLP's do suffer from artefacts too when low resolution or poor quality material is fed into them. They also are not flat and this is a consideration for anyone that wants to mount their future TV to a wall. The other problem is that of the rainbow effect due to the colour wheel used in most consumer devices. Colour reproduction is at 24bit rather than the 30bit and even 36bit some Plasma's claim.

LCOS is a technology that is not widespread in the UK and therefore I do not know much about it. I have seen that JVC have readied a 1080p set for the consumer but that is about as much as I know about it at the moment. Will be reading up on it, I do believe there are Thomson displays that use LCOS but did not pay much attention to them.

Any thoughts, comments, disagreements please post.

Edit - I believe Sony use LCOS in their 3LCD Bravia range - if so then it has very poor viewing angles and the image looks too smooth for my personal taste.

 

[Ty]

Wow, alright I'll take an abbreviated stab at this because really the answers could be too long.

What is the best display technology for the consumer right now for both SD and HD material?

1. PDP - Plasma Display Panel
2. DLP - Digital Light Processing
3. LCoS - Liquid Crystal on Silicon
4. LCD - Liquid Crystal Display

By best display I am talking about resolution, contrast ratio and brightness as well as maintenance (burn-in issues, image retention etc) and lastly cost. The rest is down to the scaler and connections which vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Right now my feelings are that Plasma screens offer the best display but are the most costly. SD and HD materal can look good. The problems are burn-in and image retention - gas life and other such problems seem to be a relatively small issue now. Getting a display that is 42" or less at a true HD resolution is nearly impossible in the UK. Most screens offer 1024*768 XGA resolution (Panasonic, Pioneer, LG, Samsung) or 1024*1024i (Hitachi and Philips).

Well naturally costs depend on the size of the screen you're getting and frankly at the crossover point in size where they make PDPs and LCDs, I THINK (but haven't checked lately) PDPs are cheaper overall (refering to good brands for both PDPs and LCDs). That is, compare a 42" HD Panasonic PDP vs. a 42" Sharp Aquos LCD and the latter will be more costly.

LCD displays seem to excel at pronouncing the artefacts present in low resolution programs and you get a strange moire type effect with non-HD material. They also lack brightness and can suffer from poor contrast ratio's in comparison to other technologies. The screen size does not go higher than 40" before prices sky rocket. They in general do have amongst the best native resolution. To their credit they are very thin and can look amazing with the right material but as a general TV I think they have too many shortcomings.

Frankly I don't know why LCD technology would be more prone to crappy SD PQ than PDPs (you mention artifacts & moire).

That said, the latest Sony Bravia (speaking of the Wega model, I am unfamiliar with the regular version) is supposed to be quite good at displaying SD material. In fact I will likely pick one up unless the new Sharp Aquos models due around in March are better.

CCFL IS the best thing going for LCDs right now and will likely remain so for the near future until LED backlighting can address a few issues (like Heat & Power Consumption). So once they move to LEDs that are duty or strobed cycle, CCFLs will remain the best type of lighting solution employed by LCDs imo.

DLP sets to me look good, you get the beautiful picture of a plasma display but at a lower cost and similar screen size. DLP's do suffer from artefacts too when low resolution or poor quality material is fed into them. They also are not flat and this is a consideration for anyone that wants to mount their future TV to a wall. The other problem is that of the rainbow effect due to the colour wheel used in most consumer devices. Colour reproduction is at 24bit rather than the 30bit and even 36bit some Plasma's claim.

Yes, DLPs are great bang for the buck. The rainbow effect is lessened with each generation and frankly affects such a minor part of the population that I wouldn't worry about it - get view it in person to see if you notice it. Also they lack SDE (Screen Door Effect) which both PDPs and LCDs have. You should figure out your viewing distance before considering a set btw. This will help you to determine the rough screen size you should shoot for.

What I can't stand about DLPs is the same thing that plagues at FP-type sets, uneven screen brightness. Also I like to play games lying down in front of my TV at times, and so the hideously small vertical viewing angle would interfere with that.

Re: bit color - I wouldn't worry about that too much. None of the PDPs are able to simultaneously display those billions of color at once. Sure, their palette may be that expansive but they're no where near the capability of displaying all of it.

LCOS is a technology that is not widespread in the UK and therefore I do not know much about it. I have seen that JVC have readied a 1080p set for the consumer but that is about as much as I know about it at the moment. Will be reading up on it, I do believe there are Thomson displays that use LCOS but did not pay much attention to them.

I haven't kept up with it since Intel dropped it.

Any thoughts, comments, disagreements please post.

Edit - I believe Sony use LCOS in their 3LCD Bravia range - if so then it has very poor viewing angles and the image looks too smooth for my personal taste.

Don't know about that particular Sony model.

I think a rough list of considerations should be:

• Viewing Distance (this affects screen size and ability to notice SDE)
• Budget - duh
• Viewing Conditions
  • Do you watch in a brightly lit room or prefer to watch movie theater style (dark)?
    • Bright = Less contrast needed for your set
    • Dark = More contrast needed for your set

You seem to be well aware of other drawbacks so I won't go into burn-in, etc.

 

[Tahir2]

Thanks for the reply.

Having watched a few demos at various stores comapring LCD's and Plasma's the Plasma's seem to cope better with poor feeds. Being realistic a lot of my viewing will still be SD material but at least some of the channels Sky offer are high bitrate relatively.
You mention the Sharp Aquos, not seen any that are 40" and even though many people are enamoured by the Aquos range I am not one of them. I haven't seen a Sony Bravia LCD in action yet.

DLP's vertical viewing angle is atrocious as you mentioned but I would not lie down to watch TV so would not affect me as much. Apparently DLP's can "lag" as well so are not the best display technology for games. This probably rules out DLP's for me personally as I would like the option of gaming on my new set.

Plasma's I am in favour of, the only thing that worries me is burn-in as my daughter loves watching CBeebies and they have a very pronounced yellow logo on there. I know there are ways around this to lessen the problem.

If the Sony 3LCD is LCOS then they have poor horizontal and vertical viewing angles.. so would not consider them.

I was about to buy one of these: LG 42PX5
XGA resolution Plasma with a high contrast ratio... did look good running HD material at Comet. Why I didn't is because there was no stock and fate prevented me - now if I wait a little longer maybe I could get a Pioneer or Panasonic but in the end only LG and Samsung make the panels from what I know.

 

[Ty]

Thanks for the reply.

Having watched a few demos at various stores comapring LCD's and Plasma's the Plasma's seem to cope better with poor feeds. Being realistic a lot of my viewing will still be SD material but at least some of the channels Sky offer are high bitrate relatively.

You know, everyone tells you that you should witness them in person but the problem with this is that many stores don't care what feed they give their sets. Also they don't bother to calibrate their sets whatsoever, so making in-person comparisons still isn't as valid/accurate as it should be. For instance, many of the older Sony CRTs had a noticeable red push out of the box which could easily be rectified by dialing it down a bit. So just be careful or at least fiddle with the sets yourself to see if you can get them to display a decent picture.

You mention the Sharp Aquos, not seen any that are 40" and even though many people are enamoured by the Aquos range I am not one of them. I haven't seen a Sony Bravia LCD in action yet.

This is from what I gather from over at the AVS forums though I haven't done any hardcore comparisons myself. Seen them in person and thought they were pretty darn good

DLP's vertical viewing angle is atrocious as you mentioned but I would not lie down to watch TV so would not affect me as much. Apparently DLP's can "lag" as well so are not the best display technology for games. This probably rules out DLP's for me personally as I would like the option of gaming on my new set.

I had forgotten about this and it in fact extends beyond just gaming. Sometimes there is (or at least was back when I was looking at DLPs) a somewhat noticeable A/V sync issue.

Plasma's I am in favour of, the only thing that worries me is burn-in as my daughter loves watching CBeebies and they have a very pronounced yellow logo on there. I know there are ways around this to lessen the problem.

Hey, no problem there. I love my PDP! I still think overall PDPs get you the best PQ possible (for the screen size).

Yea, the logo is scary issue indeed. Some plasmas are better at avoiding burn-in than others. The 8th generation of the Panny's for instance are pretty darn good at it from what I've read (but they have another issue because of this).

I was about to buy one of these: LG 42PX5
XGA resolution Plasma with a high contrast ratio... did look good running HD material at Comet. Why I didn't is because there was no stock and fate prevented me - now if I wait a little longer maybe I could get a Pioneer or Panasonic but in the end only LG and Samsung make the panels from what I know.

Don't know a thing about LG PDPs. And you really need to see it running SD material. That's why I went with an NEC. It was recognized as having slightly better stretch modes than the Panny and also did very well on SD broadcasts (as did the Panny).

Good luck to you and keep us updated!

 

[digitalwanderer]

Dumb question, what is "SD"?

BTW- I don't know about all the display techs, but I now do know that plasma = tasty!

 

[Tahir2]

SD = Standard Definition which is 480i/576i (interlaced)
ED = Enhanced(?) Definition 480p/576p (progressive)
HD = High Defintion 720p/1080i and the not so common 1080p

PAL gets 576i and NTSC is 480i.

Digital is your Plasma 1024*1024i as you said it was a Philips screen. I think we all deserve some pics of your setup too!

 

[digitalwanderer]

Thanks for the explanation Tahir.

Digital is your Plasma 1024*1024i as you said it was a Philips screen. I think we all deserve some pics of your setup too!

Uhm, yes? Still not sure, but I can't wait to watch the Bears game on it later on the HD channels! (I think it's on two of them, FOX and the NFL channel...I HAVE A FREAKING HDNFL CHANNEL NOW!!!! )

I'll post up the picts in one of my HDTV threads a bit later and I'll go back to lurking in this thread. Sorry as I didn't mean to derail/hijack this thread, I was just trying to follow it and I still suck on terms.

 

[kyleb]

... now if I wait a little longer maybe I could get a Pioneer or Panasonic but in the end only LG and Samsung make the panels from what I know.

Pioneer or Panasonic both make their own glass.

Digital is your Plasma 1024*1024i as you said it was a Philips screen. I think we all deserve some pics of your setup too!

Digi's plasma is 1024x768, at least from the specs he linked to in his thread. And that is a true HD display resolution, anything progressive scan device that that displays 720 lines or more in 16:9 aspect ratio is. HDTV broadcast resolutions are a seprate subject.

As for burn-in, the longer the half-life of the pixels the less chance for burn-in. My Panasonic's phosphors are rated at 60k hours and even though I use my plasma as my primary desktop and do a lot of gaming with static HUDs as well, I have not had even the slightest issue with burn-in I the year I have owned it. I did take care durning the break in period and am careful to not leave a game paused on the screen while I go out for the night or whatever, but that is about it so avioding burn in hasn't been much of any hassle at all.

So obviously, plasma is my pick as well. I actually turned down a number of HD DLPs and such in favor of my ED plasma. I started out focusing on finding a native 720p display but after lots of comparing in the showrooms I couldn't help but be drawn to the over all picture quality of the plasmas; reguardless of plasmas lower native resolutions, the contrast, brightness, black levels and viewing angle on them pretty much remains untouched by other styles of larger displays.

 

[Ty]

My Panasonic's phosphors are rated at 60k hours and even though I use my plasma as my primary desktop and do a lot of gaming with static HUDs as well, I have not had even the slightest issue with burn-in I the year I have owned it.

Do you have a 7th or 8th gen Panny?

Do you notice changing brightness levels?

 

[kyleb]

It's seventh gen, and I do notice the dim when I leave it on a bright static image, but it falls off so slightly that I never notice it while it is happening but rather only after the fact.

 

[Tahir2]

Looks like Plasma is what I am after too but it also looks like I am going to have to hold on a little longer.

As with digitalwanderer the real decision maker is the missus and I managed to convince her we needed to upgrade our TV and she eventually relented. However I wasn't quick enough and she has changed her mind. Could be a long 9 months or so til I get my digital HDTV. Hah.

Has been fun researching the different display technologies and different plasma's on the market. Perhaps I will have enough for a Panasonic or Pioneer HD PDP when the time comes to upgrade.

FYI: I currently have a 32" JVC CRT that does 1080i via component. The picture quality on this TV has gotten better since I have had it (had it for almost a year now) and is pretty damn amazing for a CRT if the feed is good to it. Incidentally I have found that Sky is a million times better then NTL with their bitrates for certain channels. The plan was to sell this TV and get an upgrade but now if I buy later this TV will become the secondary TV in the house and I get a Plasma too.

 

[pascal]

For me there are only two options: plasma and LCD.

The problem for me is that I dont have an access to these panels to do my own test.
The other day I and my wife saw a Philips 42PF9630 HD plasma display demonstration. Wife liked it, specially with ambilight tricks. I am the one holding the buy decision. For me the colors looked whashed.

All LCDs I saw (Sony s-series, Philips, Samsung, LG) the black levels were not very good.

We have a WEGA CRT, and most content we see is SD/DVD. Then we are not hard pressed to buy a new TV. Also prices here are very high.

 

[Ty]

For me there are only two options: plasma and LCD.

The problem for me is that I dont have an access to these panels to do my own test.
The other day I and my wife saw a Philips 42PF9630 HD plasma display demonstration. Wife liked it, specially with ambilight tricks. I am the one holding the buy decision. For me the colors looked whashed.

All LCDs I saw (Sony s-series, Philips, Samsung, LG) the black levels were not very good.

We have a WEGA CRT, and most content we see is SD/DVD. Then we are not hard pressed to buy a new TV. Also prices here are very high.

The difficulty you face is also that what you see in person at a store is likely not at all the viewing conditions you'd encounter at home.

In a store, colors can look washed out simply because the display is not calibrated properly and/or the lights from the store are too harsh. Maybe if you go late at night, they'd be willing to turn down some of the store lights for you?

The harsh environmental lighting at stores will also contribute to the perception of low black levels in the LCDs you mention.

So really, the only way to see what is good is to take one home and see for yourself. Just like speakers, displays are incredibly dependent upon the environment they're used in.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Sorry for the lousy quality and the messy living room, I still am recovering/surviving xmas break and I haven't painted yet.

BTW-My Magnavox is rated at 60k hours too.

 

[pascal]

...
So really, the only way to see what is good is to take one home and see for yourself. Just like speakers, displays are incredibly dependent upon the environment they're used in.

How to do it without buying it?
This is why we need specialized stores with the good demonstration environments.
Unfortunatelly here most stores are unprepared. They sell HDTV like they sell refrigerators.

Congrats Digi,
Where are the games Pics? Also try to get some pics in the dark (no ambient light or flash)

 

[mito]

SD = Standard Definition which is 480i/576i (interlaced)
ED = Enhanced(?) Definition 480p/576p (progressive)
HD = High Defintion 720p/1080i and the not so common 1080p

PAL gets 576i and NTSC is 480i.

Digital is your Plasma 1024*1024i as you said it was a Philips screen. I think we all deserve some pics of your setup too!

ED = Extended Definition

 

[Rodéric]

What is the best display technology for the consumer right now for both SD and HD material?

1. PDP - Plasma Display Panel
2. DLP - Digital Light Processing
3. LCoS - Liquid Crystal on Silicon
4. LCD - Liquid Crystal Display

mmh....
No OLED ? (Organic Light Emittive Diods)
Or is it similar enough to LCD not to be mentionned ?

 

[London Geezer]

It will be very interesting to see what Toshiba will come out with, now that they've confirmed that all their new TVs will have a Cell chip inside. That could make for some pretty cool image processing for their LCDs.

 

[Ty]

How to do it without buying it?
This is why we need specialized stores with the good demonstration environments.
Unfortunatelly here most stores are unprepared. They sell HDTV like they sell refrigerators.

If stores over there don't have liberal return policies (i.e. over here the bigger stores allow you to return a product within 14-30 days for any reason) then your best bet is to go to them just before closing and see if they'll actually turn the lights off for you. I'd also recommending bringing in a DVD that you're familiar with so you can look for certain things; colors, motion blurring (LCDs), etc. And naturally you should look at the signals with various resolutions (SD, ED/DVD, & HD) because you don't want to be screwed with a set that has crappy SD.

Again, this depends on how willing the store is to work with you but if the manager wants to make a sale I don't see why this should be a big deal.

mmh....
No OLED ? (Organic Light Emittive Diods)
Or is it similar enough to LCD not to be mentionned ?

OLEDs are no where near ready to be deployed into the marketplace for display devices. They're fine for small screens that have a relatively limited lifespan (Cell phones) but blue is still giving them problems I believe.

 

[kyleb]

ED = Extended Definition

Mine says Enhanced Definition in the manual.