Perhaps compared to the "aircraft carriers" that used to be commonly seen on US roads?:smile:
Chevy Volt drivers average 800 miles between fill-ups.
- Thread starter nintenho
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That'll be the US definition of car sizes which bear no relationship to the rest of the world where a golf is sort of mid sized along with your astra's, focuses etc, a small car would be a polo, corsa, fiesta etc...
AT 11s 0-60, it is true that it's no high performance car, but that sort of number is pretty standard for a family car in the EU, it's perfectly usable.
Most hybrids have lower economy than this type of car, match teh economy and I doubt the PHEV would be significantly faster, although obviously PHEV wins if your mileage is in the form of (very) short runs.
Those numbers look strangely low for the diesal, is this some sort of fucked up US variant? My experience of the golf was arounf 42 urban, 56+ hwy, the blue motion is more like 50 urban, 80 hwy.
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DuckThor Evil
Legend
Hybrids does have pretty good mpg in the city and in jerky/heavy traffic situations, but once you have to use that petrol engine at speeds like 60mph, the diesel is more efficient. I think even my petrol Golf can match or even be more economical at highway speeds than prius. However in my general driving a hybrid like Prius would consume less fuel. As I have to drive in the city quite a bit and during the heaviest traffic. Prius however is over 10k€ more expensive than my Golf so I think I'm ok.
Don't have the numbers but people ARE buying them, and they're buying them in preference to HEV/PHEV for a very good reason, they currently make more sense in terms of costs.
In a few years the economy of internal combustion engines will be even higher, so I don't think the story is going to change significantly. However I would agree there is a place for PHEV's, primarily for people living in the middle of congested cities doing short stop/start journeys.
I wouldn't count on the cost of cheap rate electricity staying where it is if everyone starts charging cars overnight i.e. domestic demand will rocket which will quickley push prices up.
Now you're pullign numbers out of the air to make your numbers work!
But it doesn't cost you $700, it costs you £6000 ~= $9000 extra to purchase the type of vehicle we're talking about, that is the cost that must be compensated for, it's that cost differential that must come down before these things make sense to most road users.
The corperation are going to want a BIG discount in order to make the numbers add up due to the higher proportion of mileage using petrol/diesal, will be interesting to see if something like this pans out.
No, they don't see above
The EU tests have unrealistically high MPG numbers as well though. In 2006 they changed the US test b/c it was also unrealistically high. The EPA website lists the golf as a compact car. That is even smaller than small
. The point is to make fair comparisons. If you want an 11s car then you need to compare an 11s PHEV. Not a 9s PHEV. I can't even find what the 0-60 is on the Leaf BEV, google bring up 6-10 as numbers.What about an 11.0s to an 11.1s 0-60 time, is that a fair comparison? What about 11.0 to 11.5? 11.0 to 11.9? 11.99999999...?
It is fair to compare cars that are designed to fit a similar purpose - using your reasoning I couldn't compare a VW Golf, Mini Cooper, Peugeot 206 and Audi A3, as I very much doubt they all have exactly the same 0-60 time.
What about different engine sizes within the same model? Is it fair to compare between a 1.6L Golf and 1.8L Golf? Because they have different 0-60 times, and have differing fuel consumption.
What about if I was considering a VW Golf 1.6l bluemotion diesel, with a 0-60 of 10.9 seconds. Does that mean im not allowed to consider buying a leaf because I can't possibly compare fuel economy to a car without the same 0-60 time?
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DuckThor Evil
Legend
Yeah good point. US gallon is 3.785L and UK gallon is 4.546L. Makes a pretty big difference in the numbers. I've only used the US-version in my numbers.
Mintmaster
Veteran
You still haven't told me about this 70 MPG gas car. Again, diesel can't work.
Not by much.
100M PHEVs in the US charging 10kWh per day will amount to 10% of total electricity consumption, and we won't hit that number for 30 years.
They're all reasonable. You pulled the 25% out of thin air - nothing supports that.
I said $700 per kWh. The typical european car will save $1750 in gas (10,000km) over 2000 cycles for EACH kWh of battery capacity (each kWh of electricity gives you 5km).
I gave you per kWh figures so that you could do your own math for any battery size. Do you find it reasonable that most people drive 40km per day on most days of the year? Okay, then 8kWh is justifiable. In Europe, 2000 such days (6-8 years?) will cost them 80,000km*(7L/100km)*$2.50/L = $14k, assuming typical car consumption and steady gas prices. Fine, subtract $0.06/kWh (a high figure, as I showed you the UK cost is 2.5p/kWh at night), and the $14k becomes $13k. The battery will probably do twice as much mileage before being unusable, so that's $25k+ of savings over its lifetime.
PHEV is worth it right now in Europe. I am giving you hard calculations.
Mintmaster
Veteran
Yeah, that's why I switched over to L/100km in this argument. Metric FTW
After my ride in the Tesla Roadster, I have been talking very enthusiastically about electric cars that aren't comparable to golf carts, but to regular cars or (super-) sport cars, depending on how you drive them. (I think it's stupid that all but a few of the manufacturers focus solely on cheap and a small usable range that has to look as good as possible, and don't allow the driver to decide what he/she wants from it, because it's very cheap to implement, but bad for the checklist. But that's another story).
Most people start complaining about the lack of sound pollution, and go on about the impossibility to "fill it up" wherever and whenever they want, and drive around the world if they feel like it. Then they switch to the massive pollution caused by all those batteries, the unreliability of something new and they end with the argument that everyone would produce and drive one if it was that good, so it isn't.
"It's pretty dangerous, because you don't hear it coming." "That sound of an engine roaring makes me all (fill in expletive)."
Well, it's still sound pollution, and because sound (like smell) grabs you directly by the balls. That sound has a direct relation to the kind of car they envision driving themselves. Which is why a new (much louder) muffler is one of the most popular car upgrades. It makes the car seem much faster and much more expensive, to them.
"But, how about if you have to drive longer than expected, or want to go on holiday to a place thousands of kilometres away? Or forget to plug it in? You would hate yourself when stranded for buying such an impractical car."
Well, for starters, buy one with enough range. And there are wall sockets everywhere. Who says you cannot "fill it up" at your average gas station? They definitely have a usable fast charge socket somewhere accessible. Just ask. Or how about that farmer out in the middle of nowhere, with no gas stations in a large radius? Do you think it's more likely he can help you with gasoline or electricity?
And up till five years ago, driving by car on a holiday inside Europe (or taking the bus) was by far the cheapest solution. But nowadays, even for a family of five, it's a plane. Ryan Air made all that possible. It's cheaper and much faster. So why would you want to drive for days in the first place?
But the real beauty of it is, that you don't have to go to that gas station in the first place. Just plug in when you get home, for cheap. And install a timer to make use of the even much cheaper night tariff.
"Well, yes, but we're ruining the environment with all those produced and discarded batteries! The pollution it all causes is sickening!"
Ho, hum. I would say that about fossil fuels. Lithium batteries and generating electricity in a controlled way are definitely very benign, compared. And you can recycle them, if you feel the need. Which is more than you can say for all that gasoline that gets burned.
"Well, it's pretty new, isn't it? It's surely very unreliable, until they get all the kinks ironed out. And expensive! I can go to my local garage when my regular car breaks down, but what do I do if my expensive, exotic, electric car breaks down? Nobody knows how to service them!"
Eh, the first cars, over a century ago, were electric. And everything in industrial plants uses electric motors, simply because they're so extremely efficient and reliable. And the same goes for the electronics.
"Hm, I'll have to see it first. It's new and expensive, so only good for the early adapters, who have money to burn, and don't mind if it turns out to be a very expensive, dead end. If my neighbours have one and still happy with it after about a decade, I might change my mind. As of now, it's a waste of good money, if you ask me."
People don't like change. Give them something that is superior in any way, and they will still buy the old one they know until they're forced to switch. "Wat de boer niet kent, eet hij niet."
Most people start complaining about the lack of sound pollution, and go on about the impossibility to "fill it up" wherever and whenever they want, and drive around the world if they feel like it. Then they switch to the massive pollution caused by all those batteries, the unreliability of something new and they end with the argument that everyone would produce and drive one if it was that good, so it isn't.
"It's pretty dangerous, because you don't hear it coming." "That sound of an engine roaring makes me all (fill in expletive)."
Well, it's still sound pollution, and because sound (like smell) grabs you directly by the balls. That sound has a direct relation to the kind of car they envision driving themselves. Which is why a new (much louder) muffler is one of the most popular car upgrades. It makes the car seem much faster and much more expensive, to them.
"But, how about if you have to drive longer than expected, or want to go on holiday to a place thousands of kilometres away? Or forget to plug it in? You would hate yourself when stranded for buying such an impractical car."
Well, for starters, buy one with enough range. And there are wall sockets everywhere. Who says you cannot "fill it up" at your average gas station? They definitely have a usable fast charge socket somewhere accessible. Just ask. Or how about that farmer out in the middle of nowhere, with no gas stations in a large radius? Do you think it's more likely he can help you with gasoline or electricity?
And up till five years ago, driving by car on a holiday inside Europe (or taking the bus) was by far the cheapest solution. But nowadays, even for a family of five, it's a plane. Ryan Air made all that possible. It's cheaper and much faster. So why would you want to drive for days in the first place?
But the real beauty of it is, that you don't have to go to that gas station in the first place. Just plug in when you get home, for cheap. And install a timer to make use of the even much cheaper night tariff.
"Well, yes, but we're ruining the environment with all those produced and discarded batteries! The pollution it all causes is sickening!"
Ho, hum. I would say that about fossil fuels. Lithium batteries and generating electricity in a controlled way are definitely very benign, compared. And you can recycle them, if you feel the need. Which is more than you can say for all that gasoline that gets burned.
"Well, it's pretty new, isn't it? It's surely very unreliable, until they get all the kinks ironed out. And expensive! I can go to my local garage when my regular car breaks down, but what do I do if my expensive, exotic, electric car breaks down? Nobody knows how to service them!"
Eh, the first cars, over a century ago, were electric. And everything in industrial plants uses electric motors, simply because they're so extremely efficient and reliable. And the same goes for the electronics.
"Hm, I'll have to see it first. It's new and expensive, so only good for the early adapters, who have money to burn, and don't mind if it turns out to be a very expensive, dead end. If my neighbours have one and still happy with it after about a decade, I might change my mind. As of now, it's a waste of good money, if you ask me."
People don't like change. Give them something that is superior in any way, and they will still buy the old one they know until they're forced to switch. "Wat de boer niet kent, eet hij niet."
Mintmaster
Veteran
I still say PHEV is the way forward for mass adoption. You can't expect people to wait in a gas station for 1h to charge their battery (and that's with rapid charging not even available on the Tesla roadster) every three hours on a road trip.
Yeah, ICE products are much worse than landfill. Even in the US, studies have pegged premature deaths due to air pollution at 70,000 per year. I'm sure you could blame at least 20% on cars. How bad could solid, controllable waste that's not very toxic be in comparison?
Anyway, I'm slobbering all over the Fisker Karma. It's jizz-your-pants gorgeous, and the early reviews are very positive:
autoblog said:
Car and Driver said:
Fuck the badge. This is literally the perfect full size car.Road & Track said:
The 2.5p/kWh is probably one of the best rates you can get in the UK. I'm on Economy 7 and I'm paying 50% more for my daytime electricity usage than I would be on non-Economy 7, and almost £0.05/kWh overnight. The only good reason to be on Economy 7 is if you use electric storage heaters and storage hot water heaters. If you use gas to heat your house/water, or use non-storage electric heaters it is an incredibly expensive way of buying electricity, and I'm not sure if the extra 8KWh from charging a car each night gives you the ~50% of electricity consumption at night that you need to make Economy 7 worthwhile by itself.
EDIT: I also have to pay a higher service charge. Plus, electric storage heaters are a load of rubbish - If I actually had a choice about the sort of heating I had you would have to pay me to use storage heaters.
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Mintmaster
Veteran
I've never designed a high power DC-DC convertor, but I don't see what the problem is.
At 100kHz switching speed, you'd only need to transfer 1J per cycle for 100kW power handling. That would mean for max 3% ripple, the output capacitor would only have to be 350uF @300V. I found 20kW+ inductors that weigh 3kg and have only 20W losses. High current, high-voltage transistors aren't a problem. Aside from the control electronics, that's all you need.
EDIT: http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~tolbert/publications/vppc_2009.pdf
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To be honest I find the idea that electric cars would overload the network to not only be false but actually the opposite of reality. The problem with electricity use is peak power production and distribution. The more likely scenario is that the electricity grid will draw back power from the electric car if demand reaches a critical level which should prevent local brownouts rather than cause them. I bet that if everyone had an electric car the actual electricity costs would actually be cheaper overall because it is always peak power which is produced usually from gas turbines which sets the price on the market. If they can be replaced by a fleet of car batteries then we would see a net savings IMO.
Mintmaster
Veteran
It doesn't really matter. Fine, use US$0.12/kWh, which is absurd for night rates. In Europe, that makes it $12k instead of $13k after 2000 days of 40km+ driving, and $20k+ over PHEV's lifetime. That easily pays for PHEV equipment and gives owners a net saving.
Here's what it looks like in Ontario (Canadian dollars):
http://www.ontario-hydro.com/index.php?page=current_rates
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Mintmaster
Veteran
That's an interesting idea, though every house would need an inverter to make it work, along with some sort of communication with the grid. It would also be bad for battery life, adding charge/discharge cycles.
It would certainly make renewable energy more appealing.