Chevy Volt drivers average 800 miles between fill-ups.

[Sxotty]

Based on figures from http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries

Probably not that authoritive, but I thought it was probably enough to make a point.

Yeah that is quite a ways away from reality when discussing vehicle batteries. There was a piece from UC Davis discussing a vehicle battery pack that they left sitting and it recovered capacity after being in a closet for a year. I can also tell you from personal experience that when I let cells sit around awhile they too increased in capacity. It kinda depends on what is causing the degradation (and hence what specific type of battery). If you are losing lithium ions that get stuck then sitting around sometimes frees them and capacity increases. The battery a person picks for an electronic widget and a car have different characteristics. In an electronic widget the battery can be overly expensive and have high energy and power density. The widget will likely be replaced anyway. I mean a 4 year old cell phone is ancient you know. In a vehicle they will use different batteries b/c a 4 year old vehicle isn't ancient.

edit:
BTW your link is lithium cobalt, which is for widgets mostly. Even that battery university site says so, though I don't know how good it is. I have looked at it before this as it had some cut aways of the chinese cells.

LiMn2O4 is a more likely one to look at.
LiFePO4 as well.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/explaining_lithium_ion_chemistries

here is another good link, but not calendar life really, just cycle life.
http://pubs.its.ucdavis.edu/publication_detail.php?id=1307

 

[JohnH]

I'm calling bullshit. That would mean $2400 worth of gas per year, and 3x the price would mean the gas would cost $800 in the US. At $4.50/gallon, your car would have to do 56MPG for all your numbers to add up.

Moreover, since when does a PHEV add £15000 ($25k) to the cost of a car? It's basically a regular hybrid plus a bigger battery. That'll be a $15k premium at the most, and it'll keep dropping.

Too many variables already, so things get messy.

I get 1500£/1.37£/litre = 1094 Litres per year.

10000miles = 16000km

1094L/160 = 6.85l/100km

6.85L = 1.805 gallons

100km/ 62.1 Miles

62.1 Miles/1.805 gallons

= 34.4 mpg.

So in what way is my calculation bullshit? Yes, I just got the ratio of US to UK deisal prices wrong, however there is a world ouside of the US you know, the calculation is probably still correct for the UK and probably most of europe.

John.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

So in what way is my calculation bullshit? Yes, I just got the ratio of US to UK deisal prices wrong, however there is a world ouside of the US you know, the calculation is still correct for the UK and probably most of europe.

John.

I was quoting Mintmaster and in support of your calculations...

ps. Look where I'm from.

 

[JohnH]

I was quoting Mintmaster and in support of your calculations...

ps. Look where I'm from.

Ack, sorry, comment wasn't targeted at you

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I
FWIW I have a diesel which has probably more frontal area/drag than John's and we average just under 40mpg with what are generally short journeys ( the average speed (the last time I looked) was about 20MPH. (Curse these mixed metric and cruddy imperial measures))

Thats nice. My car does about 19.6-22mpg if i dont drive agressively.

Shame that diesels sound like a tracktor

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I regularly get around 40 mpg with my gasoline Golf, my record "run" from last summer was 1020km with 55 litres. That's about 43.5 mpg.

 

[Simon F]

Thats nice. My car does about 19.6-22mpg if i dont drive agressively.

Shame that diesels sound like a tracktor

Eh? Our diesel is quieter than my petrol car.... but that could be because the manufacturer stopped producing silencers/mufflers for my model and I had to go to a 3rd party.

 

[JohnH]

I regularly get around 40 mpg with my gasoline Golf, my record "run" from last summer was 1020km with 55 litres. That's about 43.5 mpg.

My previous car (Golf 1.9 TDi 130), generaly got around 45MPG back and fourth to work (stop start), on a long non stop start run driving carefully (not going over 60MPH), it was hitting 60MPG+ although it would be a bit dull driving everywhere like that!

The newer smaller engined TDi's will hit 75 to 85MPG (combined).

I often wonder if the EU hadn't gone with cat's where we'd be with lean burn direct injection petrol engines now, I suspect 100MPG in a modestly performant and practical sized vehical wouldn't have been out of the question.

John.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Diesels would probably be more popular in NA if they didn't have so much trouble starting in cold weather.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Eh? Our diesel is quieter than my petrol car.... but that could be because the manufacturer stopped producing silencers/mufflers for my model and I had to go to a 3rd party.

I dont are about noise (sports cars FTW), but more that if you go full throttle and high rev with a diesel it sounds like crap vs petrol engines. In general the diesel just sounds to me like tractors.

Wheras depending on your car, a high powered gasoline engine can sound quite exiting.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

My previous car (Golf 1.9 TDi 130), generaly got around 45MPG back and fourth to work (stop start), on a long non stop start run driving carefully (not going over 60MPH), it was hitting 60MPG+ although it would be a bit dull driving everywhere like that!

The newer smaller engined TDi's will hit 75 to 85MPG (combined).

I often wonder if the EU hadn't gone with cat's where we'd be with lean burn direct injection petrol engines now, I suspect 100MPG in a modestly performant and practical sized vehical wouldn't have been out of the question.

John.

I get around 52.5 mpg when I drive to our summer gottage, that's pretty much constant 50mph.

Diesels would probably be more popular in NA if they didn't have so much trouble starting in cold weather.

They work just fine, when you use different kind of diesel fuel at cold temperatures. diesel is very popular in Finland, and it can get pretty cold over here.

 

[JohnH]

Diesels would probably be more popular in NA if they didn't have so much trouble starting in cold weather.

You really think this is a problem with modern diesals?

 

[AlphaWolf]

You really think this is a problem with modern diesals?

I KNOW this is a problem with modern diesels. When I'm talking about cold, I mean -20 celcius and below.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

You just need a different diesel mixture. In northern Finland they use a mixture during winter that works in -40.

Edit:

http://www.nesteoil.com/default.asp?path=1,41,535,547,557,5468

There is some stuff about the winter mixtures. They do mention that @-40 you should preheat the car, but I think that is recommended for any engine. -30c grade has no such thing mentioned.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You just need a different diesel mixture. In northern Finland they use a mixture during winter that works in -40.

wow Finland must have genius engineers and no one in the world has thought of fuel additives anywhere else in the world... or maybe fuel gelling isn't the only problem with starting a diesel engine in the cold.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

See my edit.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Your edit changed nothing. Diesels are more difficult to start in cold weather than gasoline engines, even with fuel mixture additives because fuel gelling isn't the only problem. I'm not going to bother addressing this anymore, it's a known issue. Feel free to read up on it anywhere.

<edit> in no way am I suggesting they aren't usable but it's a concern.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Lol

 

[JohnH]

I KNOW this is a problem with modern diesels. When I'm talking about cold, I mean -20 celcius and below.

Hmm, as Dr Evil has already pointed out, this IS handled perfectly well in northern Europe, there's nothing special about the conditions in the majority of north america.

 

[Simon F]

Hmm, as Dr Evil has already pointed out, this IS handled perfectly well in northern Europe, there's nothing special about the conditions in the majority of north america.

And if Finland isn't a cold enough, diesels are used in Antarctica.