CELL will be there in PS3!

[London Geezer]

london-boy, reports before PS2 was announced, denied the Emotion Engine to be linked to the next PlayStation, much like Sony has been denying reports of CELL being part of the next PlayStation now...

OOOHHH... see i said *but some people might know better*

to be honest i haven't seen anything from Sony themselves denying that CEll has anything to do with PS3, just like i never saw anything denying that the EE wanst gonna be used in PS2...

 

[chaphack]

london-boy, reports before PS2 was announced, denied the Emotion Engine to be linked to the next PlayStation, much like Sony has been denying reports of CELL being part of the next PlayStation now...

Im still waiting for that EE link.....
AFAIK(after googling), it was only a "no comment" rather than a straight everyone there is no next game machine... it develops the Cell ", as the network processor...Cell " = PS3 was denied again.

Not that im saying 100% Cell will not be in the PS3, just wanted a link to the EE thing...

 

[Deepak]

I think now question is not whether CELL will be there or not.....it is when is PS3 going to be launched.....2005/6/7??

 

[Deepak]

Interesting...........

PS2.5 before PS3....

Playstation 3 in mystery of missing Cell chip

Warning: wild speculation ahead

By Arron Rouse: Wednesday 23 April 2003, 12:09


THE NEWS EARLIER this week that the Cell chip intended for the Playstation 3 was going to be delayed has hit some people hard. It's a difficult idea to swallow after so much hype within the industry. So, what is likely to happen?
There are several major factors to take notice of. Firstly, Sony has said that the Cell chip will be later than thought. It's now saying that 2007 is more likely for a machine based around that chip. The Cell chip was always a hugely ambitious project. A two year delay would be no surprise at all, even with IBM's reputation for turning out new processors quickly. You can read about that here.

Next up, Sony has been investing heavily in its OTSS joint venture with Toshiba. That Fab is going to be used to make the Cell chips when they're ready. Interestingly enough, the investment in equipment for the Fab is all based around the 65nm embedded DRAM process coming online in financial year 2005. That seems a little early for a chip that won't be ready until 2007 so you have to ask the question of what's going on?

Then there's the not insignificant matter of the firm managing to put the PS2 onto a single chip. It's worth taking good note of that chip. It runs at the same speed as the PS2 CPU, 294MHz. But the GPU that's built into it only runs at 150MHz in the original PS2... Makes you think, doesn't it?

So now is the time for the crystal ball to come out. Gazing into its murky depths, a Playstation 3 in 2007 based on the Cell processor becomes a likelihood. Maybe 2006 if everything goes really well.

But where does that leave the PS2? It will be far too old by then and Microsoft will surely have the Xbox 2, or Xbox Next as it is rumoured to be called, ready long before then. Sony will need an interim machine.

The crystal ball gives a vision. It is of a Playstation 2SE, a PS2.5 if you will. It will be entirely compatible with the Playstation 2. Sony will achieve this by making a double-speed version of the PS2-on-a-chip. A PS2 that runs at nearly 600MHz with the internal graphics also doubling in speed. There will be a few tweaks here and there to make the graphics better rather than just giving the higher polygon count that a clockspeed doubling would allow for.

The only thing to remember is that this is all to do with crystal balls, with the emphasis on the balls.

 

[chaphack]

Well, imho, if they dont get PS3 out on all major NTSC/J, NTSC/UC and NTSC PAL by 2007, it will be very bad for them.

I say at the very latest, it will be december 2005 in Japan, november 2006 US and arpil 2007 in EU.

I think Xbox2 will be out november 2005 US, and sometime ealy-mid 2006 in both Japan and EU.

 

[London Geezer]

 

[chaphack]

Interesting...........

PS2.5 before PS3....

Playstation 3 in mystery of missing Cell chip

Warning: wild speculation ahead

By Arron Rouse: Wednesday 23 April 2003, 12:09


THE NEWS EARLIER this week that the Cell chip intended for the Playstation 3 was going to be delayed has hit some people hard. It's a difficult idea to swallow after so much hype within the industry. So, what is likely to happen?
There are several major factors to take notice of. Firstly, Sony has said that the Cell chip will be later than thought. It's now saying that 2007 is more likely for a machine based around that chip. The Cell chip was always a hugely ambitious project. A two year delay would be no surprise at all, even with IBM's reputation for turning out new processors quickly. You can read about that here.

Next up, Sony has been investing heavily in its OTSS joint venture with Toshiba. That Fab is going to be used to make the Cell chips when they're ready. Interestingly enough, the investment in equipment for the Fab is all based around the 65nm embedded DRAM process coming online in financial year 2005. That seems a little early for a chip that won't be ready until 2007 so you have to ask the question of what's going on?

Then there's the not insignificant matter of the firm managing to put the PS2 onto a single chip. It's worth taking good note of that chip. It runs at the same speed as the PS2 CPU, 294MHz. But the GPU that's built into it only runs at 150MHz in the original PS2... Makes you think, doesn't it?

So now is the time for the crystal ball to come out. Gazing into its murky depths, a Playstation 3 in 2007 based on the Cell processor becomes a likelihood. Maybe 2006 if everything goes really well.

But where does that leave the PS2? It will be far too old by then and Microsoft will surely have the Xbox 2, or Xbox Next as it is rumoured to be called, ready long before then. Sony will need an interim machine.

The crystal ball gives a vision. It is of a Playstation 2SE, a PS2.5 if you will. It will be entirely compatible with the Playstation 2. Sony will achieve this by making a double-speed version of the PS2-on-a-chip. A PS2 that runs at nearly 600MHz with the internal graphics also doubling in speed. There will be a few tweaks here and there to make the graphics better rather than just giving the higher polygon count that a clockspeed doubling would allow for.

The only thing to remember is that this is all to do with crystal balls, with the emphasis on the balls.

No matter how big Sony hyperbole might be, i think it is sucidally silly for a PS2.5. So nada, hype they might be, dumb they are not.

 

[Deepak]

But Chap..there is not even a single rumour about XB2...CPU??GPU??...nVidia/ATI/??...atleast about PS3 we know a lot...there are no leaked infos about XB???

May be MS/N also plan to launch in 2007.....

 

[chaphack]

I am still waiting for that "no EE in PS2" thing.

Thanks.

 

[chaphack]

But Chap..there is not even a single rumour about XB2...CPU??GPU??...nVidia/ATI/??...atleast about PS3 we know a lot...there are no leaked infos about XB???

May be MS/N also plan to launch in 2007.....

J. Allard or the other guy said they want XB2 before PS3. Sony said PS3 will be aimed at sometime 2005. I see 2007 for first ever next generation consoles launch to be a lil too late.

Maybe for countries like Utopia, Sony might have an official launch there, sometime 2007?

tHats my speculation to go with the rest of PS3 topics around.

 

[Deepak]

But Chap if PS3 comes after XB2...that would mean PS3 more powerful than XB2...means better graphixs....I wonder if you continue to support better graphixs then....

 

[chaphack]

....I wonder if you continue to support better graphixs then....

Obviously, duh!
The only reason im criticising PS2 is because of the substandard delivery after all the hype.

And im ready to jump onto Sony again if i dont get a supercomputer 1000X performance on a chip with PS3.

 

[Deepak]

EE+GS on a chip.....

Sony makes PS2 on a chip

TIME CHANGES EVERYTHING, especially in the world of semiconductors. Not long ago everyone was cooing at the achievement that was the Playstation 2. Its graphics chip and CPU seemed hugely complicated affairs. Indeed, there was a fear that they might be too complicated for programmers to get to grips with. Now, all of that complexity has been shoved onto a single piece of silicon.
The new all-in-one chip will be produced on a 90nm embedded DRAM process. The Graphics Synthesiser will keep its 4MB of RAM onboard thanks to the process. The packaged chip will run at the 294MHz of the EmotionEngine, the CPU component of the Playstation 2.

Sony has said that the new package will mean 53.5 million transistors will be squeezed onto a die just 86mm2. In what seems a ridiculously low figure for a chip these days, the chip will use just 8Watts of power. That compares with a combined 37Watts in the previous two chip solution.

The move to the new process is likely to be costing Sony a bundle but, in the long run, it should save money. Moving to a single chip will mean a redesign of the PS2 internals and possibly even a new look machine. After all, time changes everything.

 

[megadrive0088]

if the whole chip now runs at EE's clockspeed, what does that mean for the GS part that used to run at 147 Mhz? does it mean the fillrate will be higher?

 

[Deepak]

wait for tech gurus....pana...archie...faf....marco...sonic....and others.....and jvd (he tries his best but.. ).....

 

[Panajev2001a]

The EE portion of the chip runs at 300 MHz, but the GS still runs at 150 MHz...

Actually there are some parts of the current EE which run at 150 MHz like the EE bus for example, having different ( but multiple of a same base clock ) clock signals for different parts of the same chip has been possible for quite some time now...

 

[London Geezer]

yes, and having the GS running at double the current speed would be troublesome for some if not all current games i guess.... at the end of the day game code is synchronised according to the current clock speed of EE+GS... but i might be wrong....

 

[jvd]

Well i'm still learning but if the whole chip is running at the 300mhz of the ee then yes the gs should run at 300mhz. which would mean double the fillrate. Polygon power may not double do to ram constraints unless they double the ram . An example would be the power vr chip in the dreamcast . It ran at a 100mhz , 1 pipe line and gave a 100mpixels . Double the clock to 200 mhz - 200x1= 200. So it now have 200mpixels . Double what it had before.

I figured sony might do something like this . As i've hinted at before a pstwo if u will (like the psone first) I just don't think the clock speed makes any sense. They have a huge installed base of ps2s at what 50million world wide (something crazy close to that at least) Then they release a 2.5 and it sells 15 million. Devs will not bother making games that will only run with the increased speed cause they will loose out on alot of customers. Same problems that sega had with the cd and 32x will be felt by sony. Its never a good idea to upgrade. Now mabye if they can tripple the speed and take out some of the limits the first one had and add alot more on die ram they could have a decent ps3. Then in 2010 release a uber cell chip running at like 6 ghz and double the chips on die and get like a 7 tflop chip or so.

 

[Deepak]

This is what Hannibal, CPU Super Guru thinks about PS3 and Cell in Arstechnica.com forum (Ars Technica News & Discussion).....

"In a recent news thread, forum member wco81 posted a link to this article on the story behind IBM's upcoming Cell chip. It's got some decent info in it, so I recommend reading it, but be sure to maintain plenty of skepticism regarding the way the author frames the story he's telling. I'm not sure he understands the console market all that well; he seems to think it's technology-driven and not license-driven, which is a mistake that PC people commonly make when they talk about consoles. Also, the article contains the following quote about the PS3 and the Cell processor:

IBM has not announced when it will release the final [Cell] chip, but the Cell project was originally envisioned as taking five years, suggesting that the final product may not be ready until as late as 2007. Although Sony refuses to talk about its future plans for the chip, it does admit that the Cell chip will not be the CPU in the Playstation3, reportedly slated for release in 2005.

I'm actually fairly certain that the claim that Sony won't use the Cell in the PS3 is not accurate. I emailed the author asking for a direct, on-the-record quote from a Sony rep for this particularly stunning revelation, but he never bothered to respond. My suspicion is that the writer heard something from someone that he thought sounded something like an indication that Sony won't be using the Cell in the PS3, and he then reported it as fact, not knowing that if it were true it would be a major revelation.

If it were true that Sony is in fact not using the Cell for the PS3, then this goes against everything that's been made public about the console so far. It also raises the question of what Sony would choose to use as a replacement chip.

The latest bit of news on the cell is that Sony is investing $1.6 billion into a new 65nm plant for fabricating the Cell chip.


"Cell will be the basic processor for building networks," Ken Kutaragi, Sony's executive deputy president, told a news conference. "In addition to expanding its use in new applications inside the Sony group, we want to take it outside the home and expand it to a variety of areas."

I presume that when Kutaragi says that Sony wants to take the Cell "outside the home" this means that it will show up first in the home, and I can't imagine that they'd spend that much money on a plant for a home-oriented chip that's not destined for the PS3.
.......
.......
Some more gurus say following....

"My own opinion I have had ever since the beginning, since I have followed PS3 development from the beginning, is that the Cell is indeed the CPU architechture of PS3. This is pretty well known.

Now, with regards to release dates: According to the ZDNET article, that actual CELL schematics and simulation tests are pretty much near completion. Developing system software and a CELL processor testing OS are the next hard parts that might push release dates of any CELL systems back. CELL is extremely complex. For PS3 specifically, it is an absolute must for Sony to develope a proper PS3 OS and PS3 dev libraries. PS2's Emotion Engine architecture is complicated enough( read Hannibal's PS2 architecture article). Add the limited PS2 dev libraries that came with initial shipping PS2 DTL-T10000 workstations, and it was a PS2 developers worst nightware to write code for the PS2.

With PS3, it really is not an option. An architecture such as CELL need good system libraries and a fully featured OS, or else development for PS3 will be literally 1000 times worse that PS2. It is a must.

We are talking about the CELL having 4 PE(Processing Elements) minimum, each having 8 vector units. That's 32 vector units total. Each PE can be reconfigured for any task( hardware TCP/IP like IBM's soon to be released Power5 processor with fast track technology, 3D rendering, audio decoding, audio encoding, etc ).

When talking about PS3, excellent dev kit software libraries for PS3 workstations, and an excellent PS3 OS will literally make or break PS3."

"I may be a PS2/Sony guy, but you really have to admire the design of the PS2. I mean, to attain the computational/3D/raw computing ability PS2 has, Sony really had no choice but to do a custom architecture. Remember, PS2 was developed even before Nvidia released the first GPU, the Geforce 256. Xbox has a PC like CPU/GPU architecture, which is why it can survive with a Celeron 733MHZ. GameCube also has a CPU/GPU like architechture, with a fancier embedded memory subsystem for Flipper and Gecko. PS2, on the other hand, doesn't have a GPU @ all, or even a Sound Processing unit. SPU2 is just really an audio rasterizer, and Graphics Synthesizer is a graphics rasterizer. All computational work is done by the Emotion Engine in a nutshell with VU0 and VU1(feeding display lists to the GIF).

PS2 is really an achievement, it is just that Sony Computer Entertainment didn't spend enough time or $$ on developing complete libraries for PS2 DTL-T10000 workstations. This is what hurt PS2 initially, and is what I think might hurt PS3 with its beautiful, but sophisticated CELL architecture, unless Sony really poors engineering into good PS3 dev libraries, tools, etc.

Even today, with my PS2 Linux Kit, actual PS2 development on it is very hard with the available libraries. If a hobbiest PS3 dev kit of some sort comes out( I am fully expecting this ), boy will I have a nightmare doing anything dev related on it, unless the PS3 dev libraries are very good and easy to program with."

 

[Phil]

guys, you can bet that Sony will not be stupid enough to bring out a PS2.5 in attempt to launch the real deal 2 years later. It wouldn't make sense and most costumers that will not buy the "upgrade" will feel fuuked by Sony. Developers sure enough, won't be keen either. There's just a lot of rumours going on at the moment thanks to the contradictory statements coming from Sony about CELL.