Causes and cures for obese people *spawn

[Billy Idol]

Dr Evil, thanks for the link to the thread! It passed by me...seems very interesting!

I guess that the tribes (and cavemen back then) do the following: if they hunt down an animal, the stuff they eat first are the organ stuff. These are super rich in nutrition and provide lots of fat and vitamins. Eating the lean meat part is something that developed in modern society and not particular that good, as protein amount is to high.

And no, I am not blind towards abything. But I read in scientific studies, that there is hardly any difference in the biochemistry of carbs...whole grain food doesn't really help that much. So, that is why I believe that basically all carb heavy foods are quite equal. I know that the amount of fiber helps control the insulin levels, I know that food with low glyx index is sometimes better (or better: low glyx load), but I also think that overweight people have already a malfunctioning pancreas to some extend, and only drastically reducing carbs can reset it...after this, you could try a low glyx diet with some carbs (if you even want it) or mediteranian diet...or whatever, if you dtill watch your body reaction on the higher amount if carb.

Edit: I read the thread you posted Dr Evil...?!? So reading your posts, it seems to me that we agree on all fronts? Did you change your opinion? If yes, what changed. I jumped on the low carb wagon (there are many different names and diets out there) 4 years ago...still am convinced that it is the right thing for most people with overweight problems (there are also some cases where changing diet does not help because of leptin resistance that needs medication to improve, and there is the problem of stress, which is extremely difficult to treat...as people can just be stressed from stuff, even if it is not really stressful, a person can react with stress...this is quite hard to treat it seems).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The Paeleolithic diet is in in some debate because there's very little archaeological evidence (like many aspects of diet!). However, check out some stone-age style populations:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article2894387.ece

Lost tribe in the Amazon. None are obese. Their diet?
"The pictures show in vivid detail gardens for maize, sweet potato, pumpkins, bananas and peanuts."
Later in the article it mentions they have another food (manoic or something) from which they make flour. Carbs, carbs, carbs! Only peanuts are providing a significant oil and protein source. Carbs are the most common bioenergy source out there. They are the staple of our diet.

It appears that a lot of your argument is based around large people losing weight, and seeing high low carb diets helps that. That's a different discussion to the root cause of obesity, which is too much intake (if one doesn't like the idea of talking calories, one can talk physical matter. A person can't put on a pound of hydrocarbons without consuming a pound of hydrocarbons. If people don't eat more hydrocarbons than their body catabolises a day, they won't gain weight).

 

[Billy Idol]

The Paeleolithic diet is in in some debate because there's very little archaeological evidence (like many aspects of diet!). However, check out some stone-age style populations:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article2894387.ece

Lost tribe in the Amazon. None are obese. Their diet?
"The pictures show in vivid detail gardens for maize, sweet potato, pumpkins, bananas and peanuts."
Later in the article it mentions they have another food (manoic or something) from which they make flour. Carbs, carbs, carbs! Only peanuts are providing a significant oil and protein source. Carbs are the most common bioenergy source out there. They are the staple of our diet.

It appears that a lot of your argument is based around large people losing weight, and seeing high low carb diets helps that. That's a different discussion to the root cause of obesity, which is too much intake (if one doesn't like the idea of talking calories, one can talk physical matter. A person can't put on a pound of hydrocarbons without consuming a pound of hydrocarbons. If people don't eat more hydrocarbons than their body catabolises a day, they won't gain weight).

I agree that there are lots of cases which are unclear at the moment. This lost tribe is quite an example, and I can't tell you why it is like this. But I can try: if this is an isolated tribe, with no access to modern medicine. One possible explanation could be darwin: people from this tribe sensitive to carb, eventually get sick and just die earlier. They get sorted out by nature...over the generations, this would generate automatically people that can process the available food. Don't know if this is true and the answer, but a possibility.

Btw, I really believe that this is exactly what is happening at the moment on a quite global level. People sensitive to the available food are getting (morbidly) obese and metabolic syndrome...and if no change is happening, those people will get 'sorted out'.

And yes, I do judge from observations of obese people on the diet. But I believe the following: if people are obese, I do think that this typically indicates a low tolerance to carbs and in this case low carbing is the way to go. So for obese people, carb sensitivity is imo most often the reason...with mechanisms described above.

I also think that if you eat lots of carbs and are still thin (Shifty, you said you eat lots of carbs and are quite thin)...I think that such people can basically eat whatever they want and they would have to try really really hard to gain weight...I know lots of people of this type, one of my best buddies is sugar addicted and basically lives from pure sugar based junk food...but is slim as hell.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Aren't most of you over complicating this way too much?

Why are most fat people fat? Because they keep stuffing their face with bad stuff and sit on their ass all day.

Eat normal breakfast, lunch and dinner, walk/ride a bicycle 10 ~ 30 minutes a day and you won't get fat even if you eat a normal amount of "bad" stuff every day.

 

[Billy Idol]

Aren't most of you over complicating this way too much?

Why are most fat people fat? Because they keep stuffing their face with bad stuff and sit on their ass all day.

Eat normal breakfast, lunch and dinner, walk/ride a bicycle 10 ~ 30 minutes a day and you won't get fat even if you eat a normal amount of "bad" stuff every day.

Not true imo.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I guess that the tribes (and cavemen back then) do the following: if they hunt down an animal, the stuff they eat first are the organ stuff. These are super rich in nutrition and provide lots of fat and vitamins. Eating the lean meat part is something that developed in modern society and not particular that good, as protein amount is to high.

They eat and used the animal up pretty much 100%, you don't throw away good stuff that was hard work to put down. It's true that organs were (are) more valued and nutritious, but their fat content is still quite low and the total amount of them in a large animal is pretty low and aren't enough to sustain many people compared to the rest of the meat.

[Edit: I read the thread you posted Dr Evil...?!? So reading your posts, it seems to me that we agree on all fronts? Did you change your opinion? If yes, what changed.

Like I said my opinion evolved, but there is still good stuff there. In general it's best to study the strongest arguments from every side, instead of just searching for material that supports one's current belief. The evidence that carbs per se aren't the problem is way too strong to ignore. Often when one lumps complex situation into just "carbs" you already start on a wrong foot. Carbs alone especially if mainly in glucose form and in a normal caloric diet won't overburden your system, but eating way excess calories and carbs will.

 

[MfA]

OT:
What has the highest influence is the wrong dietary advice from the US government. Damning dietary fat and increasing energy intake via carbs instead directly leads to obesity

My nation has existed on bread and potatoes for generations.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If you start doing a high fat, moderate protein and low carb diet...your hormone levels will start to regulate themselves back to normal...it is not only insulin, but also leptin...which regulates the hunger mechanism.

That is true but also an overused excuse for a lot of people. Yes, there are people that are genetically disposed towards obesity. But there are significantly more people that are obese because of their diet. Whether it is what they eat or what how much they eat.

So wait a minute, if you stick to eating the daily calorie intake recommended for your sex, height, age and lifestyle you'll still get obese?

No, you won't, please stop kidding yourself.

Yes, this is exactly what happened in the 90's when the US government via the USDA adopted the "food triangle" which emphasized high carbohydrate intake.. Caloric values didn't change, only the composition of the recommended diet. That greatly accelerated the trend that started in the 70's with easy access to refined carbohydrates like white wheat flour. Prior to the 70's refined wheat flour was more expensive and limited to more affluent people. A lot of parents made their children obese by following those guidelines in the 90's.

It was later amended to try to shift the focus more towards complex carbohydrates which aren't as conducive to runaway weight gain. But, IMO, carbohydrates are still too highly emphasized due to the US still having many nutritionists wrongly pushing a low fat diet.

yep just take a walk to most very poor countries, notice the lack or even the complete absense of fat ppl. Its not the diet (which is often pretty crap) its just that they cant afford to eat lots like we do in the west

Yes, obesity is very much a rich man's disease. But not just in the amount of food you eat. It is even more so governed by what food you eat.

As a nation and its people become more prosperous you gain easy access to food that was previously restricted to rich people. Sugar and refined carbohydrates are two great examples of this.

Sugars act to block the body's natural mechanism for regulating food intake by blocking the mechanism that triggers the feeling of fullness (satiety).

On the other hand refined wheat flour requires so little energy to digest and offers so much glucose in comparison to unrefined wheat flour. Why? Because unrefined wheat flour using the whole kernel has less glucose, more protein, more fat, and more fiber per volume of weight compared to refined flour. That is due to the removal of the bran (high fiber) and germ (higher in fat and protein compared to the endosperm).

Combine those two in common pastries, cookies, cakes, etc. that are cheap, affordable, and easy to get and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

This also applies to many other modern day dietary conveniences like sugared cereals, sugared drinks (Fruit juice as well as other sugared drinks), bread made from refined white flour, etc...

All things that aren't easily attainable or affordable for most people in 3rd world countries. For example, most bread in those countries is likely made from whole wheat flour because it is expensive to make refined wheat flour.

I am also arguing that the root cause of obesity is too much food, and not the wrong type of food. The wrong type, which may change person to person for all I know, may make your management of weight harder, but gaining weight requires your body to consume more food than it needs for energy.

The root cause is both. Your choice of food can and will determine how much you eat. Which in turn leads to over eating. That's in conjunction with certain types of food resulting in more calories per unit of satiety (if satiety were measurable) due to digestibility or glucose content due to being refined.

Two very simple things I did lose weight.

1. Remove virtually all sugar from my diet. I only allowed myself one to two high sugar items per week. The result was that I ate less without trying to eat less. I didn't change any behavior. I still ate to the same feeling of fullness as before, except now, instead of that fullness being triggered by a stomach that was full to bursting it was triggered by the proper mechanisms in my body telling me that I was full.

2. Remove most highly refined food products. Basically limited how much food I ate that was made from refined wheat in a similar way to sugars. This hurt the most as I LOVE Ramen and Spaghetti. As well as white rice (similar to refined flour due to many of the balancing components being taken out in order to increase the flavor profile).

On the other hand I still ate potatoes (with the skin) as well as a limited amount of pasta/breads made with whole grain flour (which includes the bran and wheat germ) and other complex carbohydrates in moderation.

My caloric intake didn't change significantly, however, as I was also consuming more fat which is tied with Sugar for the most calories per gram.

So, I ate less food, but a similar amount of calories, yet still lost weight. My girlfriend at the time who was a nutritionist/dietitian of the old school (fat bad, count calories) was constantly struggling to maintain her body weight (she was on the lower end of acceptable BMI [a useless an highly imprecise measurement for obesity, BTW] for her sex and height) with a low fat diet consisting of the recommended calories to maintain her weight at her height and exercise level (walking 2-8 miles per day).

She was always telling me to count my calories and eat less fat. None of which I heeded. And to her surprise I lost weight. She sometimes counted the calories I ate, and couldn't believe how many calories I was eating (sometimes WAY above recommended, like 1000-2000 calories over recommended and never lower).

We did, however, both agree on Sugars = bad and refined food products = bad. However, she couldn't resist the occasional sugary treat as well as I could. But even with the sugar treat she'd never go over the recommended caloric intake. Despite that, she'd still occasionally put on 5 pounds without her caloric intake changing and then work to lose those 5 pounds. The only thing that changed? What she ate. Mostly when it involved something made from refined wheat flour.

Lost tribe in the Amazon. None are obese. Their diet?
"The pictures show in vivid detail gardens for maize, sweet potato, pumpkins, bananas and peanuts."
Later in the article it mentions they have another food (manoic or something) from which they make flour. Carbs, carbs, carbs! Only peanuts are providing a significant oil and protein source. Carbs are the most common bioenergy source out there. They are the staple of our diet.

You know the other thing it isn't showing? Refined flour. Or any refined food products. Or food that is high in sugar without also containing fiber or other natural content to slow the digestion of the sugar.

In my example above you'll note the things I removed from my diet were mostly refined products. Refined sugar (table sugar and corn syrup for example), refined white flour, refined white rice, etc.

If you look at developing countries receiving food aid from developed nations like the US, you can see the rates of obesity increasing despite food still not being plentiful. And certain not getting anything even remotely resembling enough food aid to be overeating. The main reason for that is due to the use of refined white flour for many food aid projects. Yes, the people are no longer starving, but now they face the problem of obesity.

Regards,
SB

 

[rcf]

...

Exactly. And what you've said is old knowledge, nothing new. If I remember correctly, there's a book called "The History of a Crime Against the Food Law", written a long time ago by the first director of the FDA, which describes the corruption that was required for refined white flour to be allowed for public consumption.
And since we're talking about foods and beverages loaded with refined carbs, let's not forget widely used additives like monosodium glutamate that actually potentialize the effects of refined carbohydrates in the organism.

What amazes me is that what you've just said can be practically demonstrated rather quickly, in one month or so, and yet we have generations of healthcare professionals that will just follow whatever is written in their school books, even if the theory does not correspond to the reality they see with their own eyes.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The root cause is both.

No. I want to be particular on this. You're right with what your saying, but that's different to the underlying problem. What you're talking about is bioavailability of energy. That's different to the listed calorific content of foods on labels which is the raw energy content (as determined by combustion of the foods and not actual catabolised energy release). The packaging lists a calorie content but that's not necessarily the amount of energy your body will extract from the food, so eating 100 kcal may result in your body absorbing 90 kcals of energy or 75 (and that'll change with individual as well as food type).

Irrespective of the listed values though, the reason one gets fat is because one consumes more real calories (absorbed hydrocarbons) then one needs. This could be because one has trouble feeling satiated and overeats. It could because one is counting the calories and eating exactly the recommended amount except for them personally, their daily requirement is less than the recommended amount. It could also be, a suspicion of mine, that nutritionists grossly underestimate the energy in food and have set the recommendations too high (something I've heard they are considering changing). But irrespective of why, the reason one puts on weight is because one is consuming more food than one needs.

Note I'm not talking about whether the Western diet is good or bad (I certainly didn't not think it's great and doesn't need changing!), nor how to lose weight. I'm only addressing the root cause, because it is that simple. When people understand that, they can work from it. "Okay, I'm overeating? Why am I overeating? What can I do about it?" Which ties in with what you and others are saying. The blame and solution lies there, and not 'well the government isn't legislating properly, and the food companies are ruining me, and I was told to reduce fats and now I'm ballooning.'

Your choice of food can and will determine how much you eat.

That's often what happens, but there's often a lot of psychology in effect here as well as biochemistry. Bodies always adapt to the status quo. If the status quo is an excess of food, the body and psyche will normalise to that standard and consider anything less disagreeable. The issue there is psychological, and the solution is just to 'get over it' and go hungry until your body adjusts. I'm not saying that's the solution for all obese people!!!! Dieting and managing food and everything is definitely a good way to go about losing weight, better than hard-core diets. But those strategies are requiring something I'm also recommending and that everyone is equipped with - self control. One doesn't have to eat just because one feels a bit peckish.

2. Remove most highly refined food products. Basically limited how much food I ate that was made from refined wheat in a similar way to sugars. This hurt the most as I LOVE Ramen and Spaghetti. As well as white rice (similar to refined flour due to many of the balancing components being taken out in order to increase the flavor profile).

I eat whatever I want. I just eat less of it than most people so I never overdo it. Some people are surprised at how little I eat. That to me points to a grossly messed up culture! I'm still able to put on weight with such 'measly' portions (for which I'm not hungry!) if I'm not careful. 2000 kcal a day would make me large if not for my cycle commute. The fact people consider it insufficient shows the reference standard is completely off the charts. People eat to excess until it becomes the norm and that's their 'natural' state.

I can appreciate a campaign to change food and diets on a huge scale to make it healthier. I'm in favour of that. But that's not essential to solve obesity, even if it'd make it easier. People could just eat less energy foods. And also exercise does help burn off the calories. So basically, I very much disagree with everything in the OP. I'm not saying 'less food and more exercise' is the way to lose weight (I never addressed a cure for individual obesity), but certainly "exercise doesn't decrease weight and carbs put on weight" isn't true (hence me posting on the matter where I never post on general discussion).

 

[tuna]

Ironically, poor people are more likely to be fat in most countries, like China which has a huge obesity problem, because the poorer people can mostly just afford enough (too much) white rice. Which incidentally I have banned in our house in favor of brown/grey rice.

In China I have seen very few obese people. But I generally feel that chinese people eat a lot more vegetables than people in the west and this might have something to do with the obesity issue.

 

[UniversalTruth]

Lots of exercises- and regular sex all night long, so in the morning you are exhausted... There is no better cure for anything than sex!

Guys, one question about the energy

Why is it cal (or Cal) in USA, and only kcal in Europe?

 

[zed]

But not just in the amount of food you eat. It is even more so governed by what food you eat.
.. triggers the feeling of fullness (satiety).

you realize youre saying exactly the same thing, you eat too much food you get fat

 

[UniversalTruth]

Don't eat the shit at McDonald's. You don't know what that food consists of, and where it is made...

They put some ingredients inside and with one or two simple burgers you satisfy your hunger and feel full. Which of course should not be possible given the quantity of the food itself...

 

[tuna]

Don't eat the shit at McDonald's. You don't know what that food consists of, and where it is made...

They put some ingredients inside and with one or two simple burgers you satisfy your hunger and feel full. Which of course should not be possible given the quantity of the food itself...

I do not feel full with two simple McD burgers. Also, this is really FUD you are spreading.

 

[Mize]

How did I miss this crazy thread? LOL
Few comments of my own:

The whole it's not your fault that you're fat schtick is just stupid because it means you cannot make yourself un-fat without drugs or a dangerous surgery. Complete bullshit.

Low-carb is baloney as well unless you're dedicated to being sedentary. Active people need good carbs. Try to cycle 200+ miles/week at 19-22 mph on a low carb diet and let me know how that works for you.

Chinese eat more vegetables? LMAO! Maybe they eat more than Bubba from 'bamma, but it's mainly book choy, lotus root and other lower value veggies drenched in oil. Obesity is on the rise big time in China (thank you KFC) but the big reason Chinese tend to be leaner is activity. Walking a few miles per day does wonders.

Finally, the reason disciplined eating and exercise don't work for many is that they expect rapid results and give up too soon. It may have taken them twenty years to get fat, but they want to see results in three weeks!

PS: alcohol is the big bad thing in weight loss. It basically deactivates the liver for days at a time preventing processing of glycogen while the body is still able to pack on fat. On top of that it leads to poor eating habits...good all day, have a couple drinks then binge eat so all that discipline is undone.

Context: I was 15 years sedentary owing to kids, career, excuses and booze. An emergency appendectomy (2 days after returning from one of many, many trips to China) was a wake-up call for me. I returned to activity and better, eating habits. In about 18 months I dropped 15% of my body weight while improving strength, etc. and I'm now on a sponsored bicycle racing team. No low-carb, no gimmicks, just eating real food (not processed), getting good exercise and good rest for recovery.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why is it cal (or Cal) in USA, and only kcal in Europe?

It's the same in the UK. A calorie is 4.2 Joules. What you speak of as a calorie in the US (and it's the same everywhere else) is actually a kilocalorie, because food contains thousands of calories, and we require millions to function in a day. But because talking about thousands of calories is an unnecessary mouthful when it's obvious with the content that we're talking three orders of magnitude more, the 'kilo' is dropped. Hence 'calorie' means 'kilocalorie' when talking about diets.

Don't eat the shit at McDonald's. You don't know what that food consists of, and where it is made...

I think that depends where in the world you are. As I understand it, in the UK McD's is now 'real' food. It's all nationally grown and just beef+salt+pepper over here.

They put some ingredients inside and with one or two simple burgers you satisfy your hunger and feel full. Which of course should not be possible given the quantity of the food itself...

A regular quarter-pounder and fries does fine for me. As it should! A reasonable meal of burger, fries and Coke is half the daily RDA, which in itself may be an overestimation. Plenty of diners add a side or two to that. The fact everyone else to me eats such massive portions is IMO why obesity is on the rise. Eat a large McDonald's meal, and a Starbucks muffin, that's you done. Add a meal in the evening and a few snacks, you're way over your requirements. And people do this regularly. American dining is insanely large portions. I'll manage three slices of pizza and some wedgies and be full, where the average is more like a large pizza each. What I eat wouldn't satisfy you're typical person because their body has adapted to overeating. It's the sheer quantity of food being consumed by people more than anything that's causing the current rise in obesity.

 

[Mize]

I agree with Shifty. Overeating is a huge problem (pun intended) and the amounts of meat eaten by many Americans (and now Chinese, BTW) is terribly unhealthy. I'm not a vegetarian, but I probably only eat beef (lean steak, 5 oz) about once per week now.

I think if most americans would spend a week using a calorie counter program honestly they'd be amazed how much overeating they do.

 

[Mize]

It doesn't matter whether you call it "calorie" in the US, it's still a kcal for food purposes and is the energy required to elevate the temperature of a kg of water 1 degree C.

A name is a name and current isn't positive carriers like Ben Franklin thought either.

 

[UniversalTruth]

I think that depends where in the world you are. As I understand it, in the UK McD's is now 'real' food. It's all nationally grown and just beef+salt+pepper over here

Now? What was in the past?

I am not going to argue with you about the quantity of two simple burgers- if I tell you that I feel difference and for example when I eat a big dish full of healthy food at home, then there is something indeed.

Not to mention that my stomach needs time to get used to McDonald's shit and almost everytime I have a stomachache afterwards