Can Wii achieve the same level of Xbox's Doom3?

EMBM is just a simple method to distort your texture coordinates when rendering an environment map.

EMBM limitations:
- Works only on objects that have environment maps. Warps only the environement reflection texture, does not affect lighting (diffuse/specular) at all.
- Not in any way physically correct. Has all the same limitations as doing fake specular reflections with environment maps: The environment map is "rendered" from one point (not from all the object surface points) and the EMBM shift to the texture coordinate is just a addition, not a real calculated reflection vector.
- EMBM is not based on real dynamic lighting (it only distorts environment map texture coordinates). Environment maps are (most of the time) static (hand drawn by artists) forcing the lighting conditions to be static.
- If developer chooses, the environment maps can be rendered on real time to allow dynamic lighting, but the performance penalty for doing this is heavy. It's not something that Wii games will likely use. Swapping between different environment textures is also possible, but all the possible lighting conditions still have to be precalculated and stored into a large amount of environment map textures.
- To have both per pixel diffuse and specular lighting, all objects need to be rendered twice using different specular and diffuse environment maps. It still does not look as good as dot product (Blinn/Phong) diffuse/specular normap mapping because of the limitations described above.

As you see from the "Conduit" screenshots all the EMBM bump mapped surfaces are all shiny and reflective (heavily environment mapped). This is because the EMBM only distorts the environment map (without a environment map it does not work). Shiny "fake specular" environment map based bumps like these do not look realistic at all. It's a technique that does not work on dusty industrial looking scenes like Doom 3's really well.
Wouldn't it just be a matter of fixing the halfway vector, to do diffuse (using a appropriately computed diffuse "environment map")?

All your other "gripes" are all correct if we are talking highend rendering. But the "cheats" are perfectly acceptable for lower end real time rendering.
They are used on the vast majority of 360 and PS3 games without anyone complaining.
In the end the question is, do you want a little of one effect that is close to perfect, or do you want a lot of an approximation that is so close people won't notice when playing the game?

Why would emboss bump mapping be as costly as normal mapping? :???:

I couldn't imagine Rogue Squadron III with the same performance had its embossing been replaced by normal maps. In some places it covers entire environments in the stuff (Hoth, Endor).

(Not having played the game) are you sure it's even realtime computed bumps? It would seem silly to do realtime calculation of bumps with a fixed lightsource (the sun in an outdoors environment), and since emboss mapping can't do specular successfully (that would need dynamic calc outdoors) that can't be what you mean.

The data texture for emboss mapping is smaller (gray-scale as opposed to RGB), and you don't need to compute a per-pixel dot product. It's just a texture offset and an alpha blend.

pc999, emboss mapping is basically severely limited in the types of "bumpy" surfaces it can represent and lighting conditions it responds to. You should read this explanation of the three main types of bump mapping:
http://www.tweak3d.net/articles/bumpmapping/

The Gamecube had hardware support for emboss mapping and environment mapped bump mapping (which is how it did those nifty water effects), but it wasn't really designed for normal mapping (it could be done...but was slow and expensive as compared to the Xbox).

I'd say the extra overhead for RGB textures is negligible if we are only talking bumpmaps, and for small bumps (texturespace normalmapping mostly) 8 bit or 4 bit textures should be more than enough.
AFAIK there isn't any "per pixel" calculations with standard normal mapping, other than what all other pixels go through on a GPU.
Basically, it's just a multicoloured lightsource (RGB) cast on a RGB textured model, that is reduced to monocrome.

Maybe NM on Wii could be done like it was proposed on PS2, with a simple palette swap of the framebuffer (with some some additional transform calculations of course).

I don't see why you'd need much "hardware support" for something as simple as emboss mapping. It's just UV animation according to some specified rules. Very much like environment mapping.
 
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(Not having played the game) are you sure it's even realtime computed bumps? It would seem silly to do realtime calculation of bumps with a fixed lightsource (the sun in an outdoors environment), and since emboss mapping can't do specular successfully (that would need dynamic calc outdoors) that can't be what you mean.

http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/roguesquadron3_073003_05.jpg

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQjk4zGACM0

Its difficult to appreciate in low quality video or just screens with a fixed view, but terrains (and more) used it. In these example over the entirety and do exhibit specular highlights (in which yes they can be applied, just not as flexibly as with Dot3).

Given the hardware, I can't see a reason why emboss bump mapping is as expensive as normal maps at all, and quite the opposite has been said for years when it comes to applying them on GC/Wii games.
 
I think someone needs to ask...no, take John Carmack hostage to rebuild Doom3 on Wii and settle this once and for all. There's no use debating if people insist saying "GC/Wii can't do that simply because I've never seen it!" even when there's documentation and evidence on the contruary. That said, it wouldn't be a simple straight port, and seeing how Factor 5 has been disbanded, perhaps they can get some of their people to "help" firgure how to work out TEV.
Factor5 is still alive. They also still have an unannounced Wii title scheduled for release later this year as far as I know. There's even a very short clip on Youtube showing their Wii engine (based on their Lair engine):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boAjBBHOLes&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit2&fmt=18
 
http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/roguesquadron3_073003_05.jpg

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQjk4zGACM0

Its difficult to appreciate in low quality video or just screens with a fixed view, but terrains (and more) used it. In these example over the entirety and do exhibit specular highlights (in which yes they can be applied, just not as flexibly as with Dot3).

Given the hardware, I can't see a reason why emboss bump mapping is as expensive as normal maps at all, and quite the opposite has been said for years when it comes to applying them on GC/Wii games.
For the basic lighting emboss mapping is two passes plus the operations to do the UV shifting (maybe you could pack the base diffuse texture and one of the emboss layers into one palette, but then you'd probably have to do a third pass with the lighting in untextured polygons, saving nothing.)

Normal mapping as I think it could be done on Wii, involves a RGB texturepass, a RGB light (most likely vertex in the same pass, but another pass could be added for a lightmap) and a second screenpass to swap the palette.
 
Normal mapping as I think it could be done on Wii, involves a RGB texturepass, a RGB light (most likely vertex in the same pass, but another pass could be added for a lightmap) and a second screenpass to swap the palette.

Would it left any performance for the others (unfortanately not comun, but it seems that it could be) fxs like those seen on the conduit/F5 games.

Personally I had always seen Flipper as the ultimate DX7 (like) chip bringing to complex games what what geforce 2/radeon 7000(?) only showed in tech demos, plus a few extra fxs (that doesnt mean a shaders based renderer). By extension I think that Hollywood is more of the same (ie more complex games/scenes) but given the extended TEV it can give us also more fxs.

But if it could use full scene normal mapping and others fxs, it would change my vision about it.
 
Statix said:
so they were shadow buffers, not stencil shadow volumes.
Just to stop going around in circles here - they are soft-edged volumes. The guy who programmed them is a friend of mine, and soft-filter tips came from me.
I've never seen the actual GC version though - I'm only told it was supposedly using the same rendering. Maybe someone on B3D with GC or Wii can check.

Squeak said:
a second screenpass to swap the palette.
If you're referring to the way PS2 did DOT3 emulation, I think Wii should be able to do that in single pass without framebuffer math. It would still cost a lot of texture-stages though - which is quite a lot slower then 2 DOT3s/cycle that NV2a did.
 
Just to stop going around in circles here - they are soft-edged volumes. The guy who programmed them is a friend of mine, and soft-filter tips came from me.

Interesting, that might explain the tendency of Spider-man to go against tree-like buildings in that game :p.

J/K, I'd need to see some good videos of shadows in that game... unfortunately I have never played SM2 on PS2 and the only other game I remember using blurred shadow volumes was SH3 on PS2 and I would not defined its shadows pixelated...

PSP's Daxter really does seem to be using shadow buffers/maps and that kind of flickery and pixelated look does not seem to be coming from anything but that... now, if you tell me Daxter on PSP was using soft-edged shadow volumes too I'll be as confused as I can be... :(.
 
Panajev2001a said:
and the only other game I remember using blurred shadow volumes was SH3 on PS2 and I would not defined its shadows pixelated...
They aren't, but if you watch videos on gamespot, everything in all games is pixelated. And "the only other game"? What about the tree-hitting racers that you keep talking about :p
And there were others I'm sure you've played (ICO, SOTC, SH2-4 etc.). Once people figured out it looks good, it got used fairly often.
 
Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles uses some decent shadow effects. Unfortunately, the effects seem to be reserved for bosses.

The Tyrant in Raccoon's Destruction 3 springs to mind. Here's a video. Look for shadows around 2:06, 6:04 (very hard-edged here), and 7:52.

Here's part two. 3:03 - 3:42, the shadows look very soft, but the effect kind of breaks down as you start to wonder what and where the light source is.

Lots of tasteful use of EMBM in that game, again, mostly on bosses.
 
What about the tree-hitting racers that you keep talking about :p

Hey hey hey hey... I always commended the physics and the driving assists systems which aimed with accuracy and efficiency (I hear they use very few VU cycles to do that) at roadside trees and foliage :p.

Seriously, I would not define the shadows an any of the games you mentioned pixelated when stretched the way RE:Rebirth, PSP's Daxter, etc... are, but again I have never played Spider-man 2 on PS2... I wonder if GameTrailers has some nice 480p videos of it in action...
 
(Not having played the game) are you sure it's even realtime computed bumps? It would seem silly to do realtime calculation of bumps with a fixed lightsource (the sun in an outdoors environment), and since emboss mapping can't do specular successfully (that would need dynamic calc outdoors) that can't be what you mean.
Lasers and explosions are your dynamic lights. Flying through the Death Star trench and shooting, it's most apparent, but there are lots of surfaces and bumped surfaces and lots of opportunities to see that they're not just "baked."
 
I don't understand why Nintendo doesn't just go to one of the big three Epic,Valve or iD and say "build us something exlusive, build us your best on Wii spare no expense and we will pay half" Nintendo must have the money correct? And wouldn't a game like really help the rep for the Wii amongst hardcore gamers?
 
I don't understand why Nintendo doesn't just go to one of the big three Epic,Valve or iD and say "build us something exlusive, build us your best on Wii spare no expense and we will pay half" Nintendo must have the money correct? And wouldn't a game like really help the rep for the Wii amongst hardcore gamers?

That would be a first in Nintendo history, wouldnt be?

Anyway one game dont make a console, if MP and RE4 as exclusives (amoung a few more) didnt make it for GC it isnt one that would "save" a console that doesnt need to be saved.

Plus those companys have tech and a gaming type (expect Valve) and market really diferent from the historical Nintendo gamer and Wii HW.

Things is they dont do it because they dont need plus almost all their games are already exclusives.

What may change is companys like EA and F5 among others that are starting to see Wii as a lower risk, and the smaller ones (like The Conduit makers) that can invest on Wii, and use the current situation to gain a lot of interest.

Then we should have a much better idea of what is possible on Wii.
 
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Lots of tasteful use of EMBM in that game, again, mostly on bosses.

Someone mentioned earlier that EMBM doesn't have a specular component, yet the bump+specular in games like RE:UC and Super Mario Galaxy is referred to as EMBM. I'm confused, anyone care to shed some light on this?
 
Someone mentioned earlier that EMBM doesn't have a specular component, yet the bump+specular in games like RE:UC and Super Mario Galaxy is referred to as EMBM. I'm confused, anyone care to shed some light on this?

Sebbbi put it best:

- To have both per pixel diffuse and specular lighting, all objects need to be rendered twice using different specular and diffuse environment maps. It still does not look as good as dot product (Blinn/Phong) diffuse/specular normap mapping because of the limitations described above.

So perhaps in those games, they can afford to do such a thing.
 
I don't understand why Nintendo doesn't just go to one of the big three Epic,Valve or iD and say "build us something exlusive, build us your best on Wii spare no expense and we will pay half" Nintendo must have the money correct? And wouldn't a game like really help the rep for the Wii amongst hardcore gamers?

Because Nintendo is not technologically incompetent. They produced some very nice-looking games on the Gamecube, and that know-how has come along for the ride on Wii.
 
The video is most definitely real. I know the guy who leaked it, he's credible.
Cool. Its incredible quite frankly. Short clip, but shows me exactly what I want to see.
Because Nintendo is not technologically incompetent. They produced some very nice-looking games on the Gamecube, and that know-how has come along for the ride on Wii.
Agreed. Its not the technological expertise that's lacking at all. Many developers could come up with something remarkable given time, vision & money. That said, as ninzel suggested, if people like Epic, Valve or iD were influenced to make games by Nintendo themselves I think it would do more for the console's image.
 
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I don't understand why Nintendo doesn't just go to one of the big three Epic,Valve or iD and say "build us something exlusive, build us your best on Wii spare no expense and we will pay half" Nintendo must have the money correct? And wouldn't a game like really help the rep for the Wii amongst hardcore gamers?
My question is, why don't these companies do this merely out of their own self-interest (step 3, profit)? I think the market is there. EA seems to see the writing on the wall.

With lower development costs and console sales outpacing the other 7th gen systems, you'd think it would be a no-brainer.

I think part of the problem is that 1st-party games dominate sales of Wii games by such a wide margin. Then again, if that keeps 3rd party devs from competing, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
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