BR/HD-DVD Thread

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Oops! A little slip-up! I was thinking of the HDTV format that would result if you were to watch it at its native resolution. ...but yes, anything 24p will essentially decimate to progressive whether you view it on a computer monitor or even an interlaced scan HDTV. 1080p, it is!

...still not as sharp as I expect it could be, though! :p Anybody else get a chance to view these HD samples? What do you think?
 
http://www.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=8242617

Report: Sony, Toshiba Discuss Single DVD Standard
Wed Apr 20, 2005 04:11 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sony Corp. (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) and Toshiba Corp. (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research) are working on an agreement that could come as early as this month to jointly develop a new unified standard for next-generation DVDs, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported in its Thursday online edition.

The report said Sony and Toshiba stepped up closed-door negotiations around February to find a resolution to the standoff between their competing products. As the leaders of the two camps supporting rival standards, Sony and Toshiba have waged a three-year battle that involves nearly 200 companies worldwide.

After reaching a basic agreement that a unified standard would be desirable, they are now looking to develop a hybrid standard that takes advantage of each standard's strengths, the Nikkei said.

Sony is said to have proposed using Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology. Toshiba has presented the idea of using HD DVD's disc structure, which is closer to that of current DVDs, and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology, the report said.

Although the companies have yet to forge a detailed agreement, the talks are expected to produce a workable solution since both companies are likely to be eager to avoid a repeat of the VHS-Beta videocassette war.

The Nikkei report said Sony and Toshiba have already begun briefing Walt Disney Co. (DIS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and AOL Time Warner Inc. (TWX.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , as well as Hollywood movie studios, for approval of a unified standard and to pave the way for the signing of an official agreement between the rival camps.
 
Why don't they just encode a copy of the movie that can be read by the "other company's" laser on their disc format? While I still think it is important to "brand" the disc and explicitly state that best video performance will be achieved by using the native player for that disc format, by including alternate format material on the disc, that takes care of the compatibility issue for the casual consumer (who most likely isn't exacting enough to detect any video quality differences, in the first place). Those who want and can enjoy the very best will naturaly seek the disc format that is native to their player...

Isn't this what SACD or whatever does in taking advantage of backwards compatibility for CD players? Yes, I realize it isn't exactly the same as what I suggested above, but it doesn't really matter how you do it- just that you are able to served 2 chief groups of consumers (nearly) seamlessly.
 
The move to a unified format also puts into question the launch of Sony's next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3), which has been expected to be released in 2006. Sony has said the new game console would be compatible with Blu-ray technology.

"It could take both camps some time to develop products based on a new standard, which leaves the risk of development delays for Sony's next-generation game console," Goldman Sachs analyst Yuji Fujimori wrote in a note to clients.

http://www.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=8250540
--------

DUN DUN DUUUUUN...
Ouch, giving MS more time is like.. A NOT good thing to do..
 
london-boy said:
Well i'm not sure how anyone could be opposed to one single format. It just makes things easier and better for everyone.
Easily. I'd be opposed to a single format that doesn't support greater than 30 GB ROMs.
 
KnightBreed said:
london-boy said:
Well i'm not sure how anyone could be opposed to one single format. It just makes things easier and better for everyone.
Easily. I'd be opposed to a single format that doesn't support greater than 30 GB ROMs.

But if they unify the 2 formats it will be a multi-layered format so... ;)
 
london-boy said:
Well i'm not sure how anyone could be opposed to one single format. It just makes things easier and better for everyone.

A compromise would be great but not if Sony capitulates on most of the advantages. I read a Reuters pieces saying Toshiba wants its physical disc format, along with Sony's multilayer recording. Isn't that what happened with the DVD vs. the MMCD?

And even if they didn't sacrifice the best technical features to come to a compromise, you wonder if a unified format is necessarily the best thing for consumers. Ultimately, you want one format. But if they had a couple of years of price wars before one dropped out, prices would have been driven down faster, no?

OTOH, a unified format should mean larger software selection from the beginning. But was this really the case with the DVD? How long was it before Disney and other major studios signed on to the DVD? How long was it before key titles like Star Wars was released on DVD? How many key titles are still not on DVD?

The worst case scenario is they come up with a single format but compromise some technical merits, increase patent royalties which are passed on to consumers and the studios who pushed this single format take their sweet time releasing their crown jewel titles.
 
Ah, well, just buy a CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BRD/DL/ML/+/-/R/RW/RAM/ROM/MULTI drive. I have most of them in my current drive already, three more acronyms wouldn't bother me.
 
wco81 said:
And even if they didn't sacrifice the best technical features to come to a compromise, you wonder if a unified format is necessarily the best thing for consumers. Ultimately, you want one format. But if they had a couple of years of price wars before one dropped out, prices would have been driven down faster, no?

How long was it before key titles like Star Wars was released on DVD? How many key titles are still not on DVD?

I don't think the price difference will change that much, because there are still going to be as many manufacturers competing each other. All the new movies are released on dvd. Star Wars was delayed for reasons that have nothing to do with dvd-format.
 
EndR said:
The move to a unified format also puts into question the launch of Sony's next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3), which has been expected to be released in 2006. Sony has said the new game console would be compatible with Blu-ray technology.

"It could take both camps some time to develop products based on a new standard, which leaves the risk of development delays for Sony's next-generation game console," Goldman Sachs analyst Yuji Fujimori wrote in a note to clients.

http://www.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=8250540
--------

DUN DUN DUUUUUN...
Ouch, giving MS more time is like.. A NOT good thing to do..

This is a possibilitity, and thus a risk that such analysts would be amiss to mention, but I don't think that's very likely. From the sounds of it, this "new" format will simply pull the hardware from one camp (hopefully Bluray, imo) and the software from the other - both camps won't be starting from scratch in terms of manufacturing drives etc. One camp will need to switch - but I doubt that'll take very long (?) If Sony has to switch, they could also (though it'd pain them to do so) outsource drive manufacturing to their good friends at Tosh et al until they're ready to go full whack themselves. But they'd have several months to get up and running in time for PS3 manufacturing if a format is agreed upon shortly.
 
wco81 said:
london-boy said:
Well i'm not sure how anyone could be opposed to one single format. It just makes things easier and better for everyone.

A compromise would be great but not if Sony capitulates on most of the advantages. I read a Reuters pieces saying Toshiba wants its physical disc format, along with Sony's multilayer recording. Isn't that what happened with the DVD vs. the MMCD?
Sony and Philips backed MMCD while Toshiba backed SD.
DVD adopted the physical format of SD and the modulation method of MMCD.
Since the modulation is based on the MMCD format, it was only Sony that could produce DVD pickup lenses in the early days of DVD.

Anyway, if the new format adopts the Sony plan, then it won't take months to validate it as Blu-ray and HD DVD already share things in the logical formats. The article suggests it'll be decided in this month. It could be the cause of the cancellation of the March PS3 Premier event. Sony and Toshiba share their interest in the PS3, so they'll try not to delay its schedule.
 
http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/3_wmd_demo.htm

VMD-disc.gif


Forget HD DVD and Blu-ray, I want this because red lasers are dirt cheap. I hope Nintendo gets this in Revolution!!!
:devilish:

WMD-roadmap.gif



VMD elbows its way into High Definition

Given the household names noisily backing one or the other next-generation high-definition DVD formats – Blu-ray and HD-DVD – you will be forgiven for thinking that it is a two-horse race.

A newcomer, New Medium Enterprises (NME), is working hard at making sure that is not the case. DVD intelligence's Jean-Luc Renaud was invited in London at the world’s first demonstration of the company’s ground-breaking high definition technology – Versatile Multilayer Disc (VMD).

In a nutshell, the HD material is sourced from a single-sided disc with several layers. The demo disc staked four layers providing a capacity in excess of 20Gb, but the format roadmap calls for up to 20 layers providing 100GB of storage. The company reckons that, currently, up to eight layers is economically feasible.

On the hardware side, the built-in decoder of a standard DVD player is to be replaced by an HD decoder that enables variable bitrate readout of up to 40Mbs, though the medium bitrate is 19.7Mbs which is the standard HDTV broadcasting bitrate. Combined with “routine†software modification, the player’s controller mechanism focuses the pick-up lenses with greater precision on each of the VMD layers, more-closely staked (20 microns) than in a DVD-9 (250 microns).

Mahesh Jayanarayan, a consultant to the company, is keen to emphasise that VMD is not a competing new standard, but an enhancement of the standard DVD format. Indeed, VMD uses the existing red laser technology, the same pick-up lenses and the manufacturing process utilises only existing DVD manufacturing technologies and equipment. Furthermore, the player is fully compatible with standard DVD and other types of optical discs.

NME’s philosophy is to bring to market packaged HDTV at a price consumers have come to expect – and indeed are now used to – with DVD players. Dr Sergey Magnitskiy, one of the VMD developers, estimates that changing the decoder and controller software chips would add “only a few dollars†to the price of a DVD player.

HD recording is not seen by NME as a consumer priority and, while plans for recordable drives (and blue laser applications) are on the roadmap, the company focus is currently on playback-only machines.

The HD system is based on MPEG-2 decoder chip Sti7710. It relies on today’s accepted 1080i/p HD production/distribution format and stays away from 720p. The chips and drives are being manufactured in China. NME intends to licence its technology to OEMs. Jayanarayan will only say that they are under discussion with a number of CE manufacturers.

MNE will jump-start disc production at PrimeDisc Technologies' plant, located at Wiesbaden, Germany. The yield should be comparable to that of DVD-9. The company claims the VMD disc will cost $2 ex-factory, whereas a Blu-ray disc would fetch “$35-50 apiece.â€

20GB VMD discs will be mass-produced in time for Christmas. The 30GB version should be ready for Summer 2006, according to the company.


A market that could be key in VMD’s take-up and reaching economies of scale is India over which NME has set its sight. “Fiber optics networks are being built to accommodate HD services later this year,†says Jayanarayan. “We will be active there.â€

The publicly-listed company carries out R&D in Israel, Russia and Ukraine. It is owned for 35% by its scientists and the rest by individuals and institution. One of the major shareholders is Australia’s media magnate Kerry Paker.

In January 2004, NME acquired all of the Versatile Multilayer Disc intellectual property assets from MultiDisc in London and TriGm in Belgium. The company has one patent pending and four provisional patents filed to date. It is not in a hurry to firm them up yet as “specs disclosure could give ideas to others too early,†says the company.

The scientific team behind VMD knows one or two things about multilayer optical discs. At a DVD conference in Dublin in 1998, DVD Intelligence remembered a demo of a 7-layer CD disc. The technology was called Fluorescent Multilayer Disc (FMD) and the company behind it, Constellation 3D, which had ambitious plans for 50-layer discs and cards. The Chairman and CEO was Dr Eugene Levich, now the scientific advertiser to New Medium Enterprises. Dr Sergey Magnitskiy a key VMD developer is also an ex-Constellation 3D scientist. [At least now we know what happend to C3D] :oops:

Less technologically ambitious than FMD or other very high storage holographic approaches or even, for that matter, Blu-ray and HD-DVD, VMD has the considerable advantage of offering the same high-quality HD experience at a fraction of the price, and now.

DVD Intelligence can attest to the stunning quality of the CBS and Warner-produced HD material shown on a plasma screen and via HD projection.

But the success of a new entertainment format depends less on technology than on economics, content, partnership and timing, and not necessarily in this order.

While the Hollywood studios have officially sided with one or the other of the two main next-generation contenders, Jayanarayan is keen to point out that “these commitments are not exclusive.†Also, a number of independent publishers and distributors, with whom NME is in talks, remain on the sideline waiting to see from which direction the wind will blow. The company is looking at special-interest material as well. It remains that, as the saying goes, content is king and the locomotives are Hollywood titles.

While it is unlikely that Blu-ray and HD-DVD can co-exist as consumers are not going to commit to expensive machines and discs in a climate of uncertainly, VMD on the other hand could well live side by side with either of the costlier contenders.

If the company is forthright about how little fitting an HD decoder would add to the retail price of a DVD player, OEMs may well adopt the technology the same way they have readily paid for DTS licences. In other words, VMD-capable players could become the default DVD playback machine, especially if Blu-ray or HD-DVD fail to establish a hold on the market quickly enough. Only time will tell.
 
Unfortunately the industry has already chosen which directions they're going to support--and are trying to unify even THOSE options--so VMD will probably be exactly as successful as FMD was and as HVD is likely to be. They're neat "side tech," but they don't have the industry weight or timing behind them to displace what's being shifted to HD-DVD/BR. EVD has the most chance of all the other formats, as China alone can drive it along.

I don't see it beyond the realm of reason that they can clutch at certain niche markets--or even "not-so-niche-but-certainly-not-so-widespread" markets like VCD moved into--but in the end the main show is happening under only one tent.

In regards to the press release in particular, I have no real idea what "ex-factory" costs they're talking about. They claim their yield (and eventual relative pricing, I assume) to be in line with DVD-9, which is basically the same claim BR and HD-DVD make, so what is this ponderously and unrealistically huge price they're talking about?

The disk looks neat, though. ^_^
 
The reason why I'm so exited about this tech is the fact Nintendo can license it for use with Revolution. Assuming Revolution will not have HD movie playback, this would be a great format for games.
 
Well I certainly wouldn't put it past Nintendo to go as proprietary as they can with Revolution again, but I'm not sure they're looking that far afield. Likely their media selection has already been made and they're busy refining it for launch (and keeping feelers out simply to make sure going with another unconventional format won't turn on them with the public).

Heck, depending on what their proprietary inclinations are and how "fully compatable" VMD is with DVD, they may want to stay well AWAY from it so that people can't pirate their games through DVD to do so. ;)
 
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