BR/HD-DVD Thread

[PC-Engine]

HD DVD format update.

HD DVD-ROM
Single-sided :
30GB(dual-layer)
15GB(single-layer)
Double-sided :
60GB(dual-layer)
30GB(single-layer)

HD DVD-R
Single-sided:15GB(single-layer)
Double-sided :30GB(single-layer)

HD DVD-RW
Single-sided :
20GB(single-layer)
32GB(dual-layer under development)
Double-sided :40GB(single-layer)


HD DVD Promotion Group Member List

ALMEDIO INC. ALPINE ELECTRONICS, INC.
BANDAI VISUAL CO., LTD. D&M Holdings Inc.
Digital Theater Systems Diskware Co., Ltd.
dts Japan Inc. EXPERT MAGNETICS Corp.
FUJI PHOTO FILM CO., LTD. FUNAI ELECTRIC CO., LTD.
high-def The High-Defition Marketing Company
Hitachi Maxell, Ltd. Imation Corp
Interchannel, Ltd. InterVideo, Inc.
ITRI Justsystem Corporation
KADOKAWA HOLDINGS,INC. Kenwood Corporation
kinyosha printing co.,ltd. KITANO CO.,LTD.
Konica Minolta Opto, Inc. McRAY Corporation
Memory-Tech Corporation Mitsui Chemicals, Inc.
Moser Baer India Ltd NEC Corporation
NEC Fielding,Ltd. NIHONVTR INC.
ONKYO CORPORATION Paramount Home Entertainment
PONY CANYON INC. PonyCanyon Enterprise INC.
Prodisc Technology Inc. PRYAID RECORDS INC.
Q-TEC,INC. RICOH COMPANY LTD.
RITEK CORPORATION SANYO Electric Co., Ltd.
TAIYO YUDEN CO.,LTD. TEAC CORPORATION
TEIJIN CHEMICALS LTD. TOPPAN PRINTING CO., LTD.
TOSHIBA CORPORATION TOSHIBA DIGITAL FRONTIERS INC.
TOSHIBA ENTERTAINMENT INC. Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology Corporation
TOSHIBA-EMI LIMITED TRENDY Corporation
Ulead Systems, Inc. Unaxis Balzers Ltd.
Universal Pictures Warner Home Video Inc.
ArcSoft, Inc B.H.A Corporation
CyberLink Corp DAIKIN INDUSTRIES, Ltd.
DigiOn, Inc. Digital Site Corporation
DISC LABO CORP. EBISTRADE,INC.
Enteractive GmbH Entertainment Network Inc.
HOEI SANGYO CO., LTD. IMAGICA Corp.
JP Co., Ltd M2 Engineering
MITOMO CO., LTD OMNIBUS JAPAN
Onken Corporation PICO HOUSE Co.,LTD
PIXELA CORPORATION Sanken Media Product Co., Ltd.
Sonic Solutions SUMITOMO HEAVY INDUSTRIES. LTD
SUPER VISION, INC. TOEI VIDEO CO., LTD.
TOHO COMPANY, LIMITED. TOYO RECORDING CO., LTD.
Tri-M, Inc. U-Tech Media Corp.

 

[-tkf-]

They want to use Internet connections to renew keys but they also will download (and save on local storage) or stream certain audio and video content.

Great.. "This HD-DVD/BR Disc requires a Internet connection for activation"

No sorry son, you can't watch the cartoon, the internet connection is down.

Reminds me of steam

 

[wco81]

Supposedly, they want to keep the basic viewing experience the same as the DVD, meaning no Internet connection required.

However, software players on PCs will need to renew keys while the keys could be built into video cards won't require renewal.

Maybe software players will need Longhorn with Paladin (forget the acronym NGC something).

However, they also say that to get certain foreign language tracks or subtitles, or extras like commentary, you may have to download (meaning local storage) or stream this content. Well this stuff is usually included in discs so it wouldn't be the same as DVDs. Plus, how long will they maintain this content on their servers?

 

[-tkf-]

Supposedly, they want to keep the basic viewing experience the same as the DVD, meaning no Internet connection required.

However, software players on PCs will need to renew keys while the keys could be built into video cards won't require renewal.

Maybe software players will need Longhorn with Paladin (forget the acronym NGC something).

However, they also say that to get certain foreign language tracks or subtitles, or extras like commentary, you may have to download (meaning local storage) or stream this content. Well this stuff is usually included in discs so it wouldn't be the same as DVDs. Plus, how long will they maintain this content on their servers?

Some good and some bad stuff i guess... smells like divx, i guess Hollywood really wants to milk the next format for all they can.

 

[randycat99]

We will not have 60fps HD movies simply because 99.9% of films are shot on 35mm at 24fps.

This is a good thing??? Don't even get me started on how ridiculously backwoods obsolete the 24 fps film standard is for today's action/adventure movies. Hollywood is so not worthy of placing their grimey mitts on what is to become of HD movie media until they make some serious concessions to turn around the 24 fps standard, imo. It's time for people to seriously wake-up and realize that it shouldn't even matter if Hollywood is promising 3840x2360 on a consumer format...if it is still hobbled at a paltry 24 fps (by virtue of the film stock), we should be shouting at them for insulting our collective intelligence in wanting to sell us another schockware copy to make a buck. It is akin to Ferrari wanting to sell you the new F-70 that handles better than ever, but still powered by the same ole steam-powered engine they were peddling in 1902 (ok, don't get anal about the dates- you get the point).

 

[PC-Engine]

It will cost a lot of money to switch to 60fps 35mm filming that's why shooting with digital cameras are slowly starting to be embraced. By the time the majority of movies are shot on digital at 60fps, we will have already moved beyond HD DVD/Blu-ray onto HVD.

 

[randycat99]

Yeah, it will cost a lot. It's not like they haven't had the chance to make this change many times over in the past when they had to update their costly technologies in other areas. Cost is a red herring excuse. The real cause is apathy and complacency- in effect, still inexcusable in this day and age.

Yes, it is good to see digital HD cameras coming into use, but don't think that is going to be a silver bullet in changing things around in Hollywood. It won't make much difference if they are shooting in HiDef 60, but then "producing-down" the film to fit the entrenched 24 fps standard, anyway. What is needed is a serious industry upset to break this standard. Otherwise, it is much like "waiting" for Windows to no longer be the desktop standard. What is going to kill this thing, already? It sure as hell won't be the act of "waiting". That's for sure!

 

[add n to (x)]

Couple of interesting tidbits:

Sony moves to avoid next-gen DVD format war:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8051

Digital Cinema Initiative Spec:
http://www.hdforindies.com/2005/04/digital-cinema-summit-day-one

2K res, 24fps At least it's an intraframe codec...

 

[jvd]

iheh , might be interesting if they all go with hd-dvd including sony .

I don't think the 20 gig diffrence will be the end of the world though i think both should be scraped for a single layer 100 gig formate

 

[max-pain]

Warner Bros. Studios and Microsoft Collaborate to Release HD DVD Titles Using Windows Media Video 9 (VC-1)

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/Apr05/04-18WBMSDVDTitlesPR.asp

 

[cthellis42]

Damn Unaxis Balzers, those WHORES!

Frankly, I'm thinking HVD will probably be stillborn, or at least not matter for a long time if at ALL, as it would probably be lept over tech-wise by the time it matters. While some people may think the shift to these particular optical disks come too soon, the tech is being supported now, the marketing dollars are being spent now, and they're trying to gain public recognition NOW, so... Will HVD have anything to really offer Hollywood, all things considered? That answer is a REAL big question mark, and I'm thinking "probably not."

The thing to as is "are HD-DVD and BR incapable of delivering in HD content what DVD does to regular content now?" And judging by everyone's replies on either side so far, the answer to that seems to be "no, they can deliver that handily" so... Just what would HVD offer to Hollywood at this point? The length of movies and TV shows are not going to change, the amount of extra content they're going to include is not going to leap up into the stratosphere, the number of episodes of a TV show they'll want to put on a disk isn't going to increase, so... If BR and HD-DVD can cover in one or two layers what DVD covers now, just why would anyone take the time and effort to AGAIN try to switch over formats within the next few years? The answer: they would not.

Considering how long it took HDTV to FINALLY reach any decent rollout, and how long it took HD channels to finally start happening, the industry is going to clamp down and hold onto existing resolutions for as long as possible. The TV manufacturers will want to refine and perfect current processes to save as much money as they can, TV and movie houses will only want to make a real switch once--until there is some MAAAAJOR quality jump to support, which I can't see happening for a good decade at least--and the public simply won't support that many formats. (Hence keeping discussion open to avoid a format war this time around.) So another question is: what is likely to happen in the next decade-at-least that would make both HD-DVD and BR succumb?

Well, as was discussed a bit, the industry could transition more from 24 frams to 60 fps in their quest to update to digital equipment and support higher quality, so could BR/HD-DVD handle that? I'm not sure, but by the time that happens they both could have enough advances at reasonable cost for it to be adopted without any issues. And if not, they could downscale to 30 fps what they have to to fit things in, or many other options... I don't much see that as a problem. I AM curious what 1080p at 60fps would look like, storage-wise, on the supported codec--which would answer more of these questions--but that info I don't have right now, so I can't really judge. I do know that publishing houses are very adept at playing with things to make it as good as possible for the public and as CHEAP as possible to produce for them, so...

...and that is really the last nail in the coffin right there. Publishers are willing to update their equipment once in a while for major changes, and the money they're spending to do so is happening now, the cost analysis is occurring now, and the effort to cost-cut HD-DVD and BR is going on now (and both promise to get right in line with DVD at the appropriate scale), so will HVD magically be able to use existing eqipment, come from really cheap equipment, and cost a fraction of what DVD/BR/HD-DVD do to produce per disk? I certainly don't think so, and it would take a SIZABLE cost reduction to turn the heads of the major publishing houses, IMHO.

That doesn't mean that HVD has no future and won't have any development; I just can't really see it being picked up on Hollywood's side. The business arena, though, has its own concerns, and other PC-centric arenas care basically about data storage over everything else. Cost isn't as much of a concern, nor is public awareness on any kind of a scale the other side of the industry needs. There are certainly arenas HVD can enter, and it likely will--and will probably continue to be advanced for a while as well. (Until it either becomes intrinsic, or simply not enough to be worth the upkeep and goes the way of Zip drives.) But hey, it COULD end up being the format that "beats itself" way down the line when Hollywood IS ready to make another equivalent increase. ^_^ But I can't see it stepping into that position now, barring HD-DVD and BR's complete inability to cover a change Hollywood wants to happen come hell or high water... and I can't really see that happening.


On other matters, I don't think Sony is willing to capitulate on their format at all. For one thing it's a good PR move--they look like the good guys keeping an eye out for public interest. And there ARE moves they can take that won't change either format but can ease public adoption woes, such as working together to develop a blue laser head that can read both formats and is reasonably priced. Manufacturers can go whatever direction they want, as can the public, and people wouldn't have to worry as much. There would still be a bit more splitting than the DVD+R/DVD-R/DVD-RAM/etc. situation that already exists, but so long as it gets somewhere NEAR there--which is effectively invisible to the public--it would be fine. Basically it just needs to get to a point where someone who makes a mistake would blame themselves rather than the manufacturers and publishers. But what with the PS3 coming out Blu-Ray, plenty of support, a huge personal library to draw from, and the knowledge that million of low-cost, BR-capable machines will be interesting households soon and that the gaming houses will be ready to produce BR disks... No, I can't see them giving up much ground.

 

[KnightBreed]

15GB isn't even close, unless you enjoy watching undersampled, macroblocked movies in high definition.

Uh 15GB is plenty for most movies... I've watched several 1080i movies at about 15GB MPEG2 encoded.

1) What movie?
2) How long was the movie?
3) Were any extras included on the disc?
4) How about audio quality? Was anything high quality included like LPCM or just lossy Dolby in 5.1?
5) How large was your screen for reference? Were you watching it on a smaller HDTV (less than 65") or something actually large?

Saying that you've seen some 1080i movies in MPEG2 doesn't really tell me anything, does it?

 

[KnightBreed]

What are you talking about? Why would you need MPEG4 AVC/ VC-1 if 15GB only affords you standard definition?

Oh 15GB will certainly fit a HD presentation on a single disc. I never doubted that. It's a simple matter of reducing the bitrate or audio quality or video extras until you've made everything fit onto a single disc. Of course, reduce the bitrate too much and you introduce macroblock errors due to undersampled frames. Sure it fits, but you've reduced the quantity and quality the product in the process.

A 15 GB disc will store only 142 minutes of video data at 14mbps in VC-1 or MPEG4. That excludes any audio streams, menu information, overhead, and extras, like commentary and deleted scenes.

I might obviously be a Blu-ray fan, but I will be the first to admit that for a home theater situation, a 30GB HD DVD disc is more than adequate to provide a quality presentation in HD. The problem comes in when you start adding more episodes per disc or when you start using it as removable storage medium like in a DVR. Then the extra space offered by Blu-ray makes it attractive and a better long term solution.

A single layer 25GB Blu-ray disc is, at a minimum, what I want to see for a next generation format. 15 GB isn't even on the radar.

The first DVDs were single layer btw.

Yes the first DVDs were single layer and look like absolute garbage on my projector. I have rented Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves which was a very early DVD release and it was full of artifacts and miscolorations.

Also how do you know it's not good enough? That's just plain silly man. You haven't seen a HD DVD movie on a 15GB SL disc so I don't know what you're babbling about. T2EE only uses about 6GB for the actual movie AFAIK. Of course it wasn't running at full 1920x1080 HD resolution, but the math is pretty simple.

Using Terminator 2 in high definition as the benchmark for HD movies is setting the bar awfully low. If you are satisfied with that then why bother with any HD format.

 

[PC-Engine]

HD DVD-RW is 20GB SL SS 40GB SL DS and a 32GB DL SS version is in development. Looks like plenty for recording to me.

BTW the first SL DVDs looked fine on an average television. Expecting it to look fabulous on your 100" PJ which came 8 years later doesn't make sense at all. Same reason why VHS wasn't designed to look good on a huge HDTV that came out over a decade later...

As long as SL HD DVDs look good on today's displays, I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Ty]

As long as SL HD DVDs look good on today's displays, I don't see what the problem is.

Well that's the thing. By the time HD-DVDs come to market, we will already have had 1080p capable sets for sometime now. Honest question, will HD-DVD allow for 1080p movies?

I'd prefer something with some legs in it for my next TV set so if it can't do at least 1080p then it's somewhat disappointing.

 

[wco81]

Some poster claiming to be in the know says they will store video in 1080p24 but will only have 1080i outputs.

 

[PC-Engine]

Some poster claiming to be in the know says they will store video in 1080p24 but will only have 1080i outputs.

Kinda like DVD with 480i initially then 480p later? That's up to the hardware manufacturers isn't it?

In other news, BDA riding on the coatails of HD DVD....again.

Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless Selected as Optional Audio Codecs by the Blu-ray Disc Association


SAN FRANCISCO, Apr 18, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Dolby Laboratories (NYSE: DLB) today announced that Dolby(R) audio technologies have been selected as optional audio codecs by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA). Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless(TM) audio technologies have been approved for the next-generation Blu-ray Disc. Blu-ray Disc was developed to enable recording, rewriting, and playback of high-definition (HD) video and to store large amounts of data (25 GB for single layer, 50 GB for dual layer on a single-sided disc). In addition to the Dolby technologies mentioned above as optional codecs, the BDA selected Dolby Digital as a mandatory audio standard for Blu-ray Disc in September 2004.

"The advanced capabilities of Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless offer compelling audio performance for next-generation HD video formats," said Craig Eggers, Marketing Director, Consumer Electronics, Dolby Laboratories. "Dolby Digital Plus introduces new levels of audio quality, interactivity, and compatibility. MLP Lossless delivers the highest audio fidelity possible without compromising picture quality or video bit rates--a perfect complement to Dolby Digital Plus."

Dolby Digital Plus is an extension of Dolby Digital, an approved audio standard for DVD-Video worldwide and for North American digital cable and digital television broadcasting. While providing bit-rate and channel extendibility for future formats, Dolby Digital Plus is designed to be fully compatible with the millions of A/V receivers equipped with Dolby Digital technology in the market today.

Dolby Digital Plus is also designed to offer discrete channel coverage to 7.1 or more channels, as well as new streaming and mixing capabilities for the future needs of content creators and providers. Consumers may one day watch a feature-length movie with the director's commentary streamed directly from the studio's website.

MLP Lossless technology, licensed by Dolby, fulfills both industry content creation and consumer demand for lossless audio in next-generation media. Bit-for-bit identical during playback to the original studio masters, MLP Lossless enables discrete multichannel reproduction beyond present 5.1 or 7.1 applications. Additionally, MLP Lossless coding efficiencies enable more bits to be allocated to picture quality and special features. Discs with MLP Lossless can provide extremely high digital audio quality and ample data space for value-added content.

As the industry shifts to HD entertainment, Dolby intends to provide artists, directors, producers, and other content creators the optimum tools they need to communicate their art form at the highest-quality levels. Dolby technologies also offer consumers unprecedented audio fidelity and flexibility with next-generation playback devices, while maintaining backward-compatibility with current A/V receivers.

"Dolby is a leader in multichannel audio technologies and the advanced capabilities of Dolby Digital Plus and the original performance quality of MLP Lossless have much to offer the Blu-ray Disc format," said Pioneer's Andy Parsons, Senior Vice President, Advanced Product Development, Blu-ray Disc Association. "From the outset, our goal has been to equip the content industry with the tools needed to deliver the image and audio quality that a high-definition environment demands. At the heart of this effort is Blu-ray's unparalleled capacity. The addition of the Dolby technologies is another positive step in this direction."

 

[rabidrabbit]

What has Dolby got to do with HD-DVD and DVD Alliance as a company?? Is Dolby somehow "1st party" to HD-DVD????

It hardly is news that a lossless Dolby Digital audio codec would be part of the Blu-Ray spec, as Dolby is very likely to be used in many HD films, even if HD-DVD had never ever materialised it would have been supported by B-R.
B-R just happen to announce their progress at different time than HD-DVD, often later than HD-DVD and often very close to one other. But that's just because they have different timefames and because as for example in the case of Dolby, they (Dolby) likely proceed with their negotiations with HD-DVD and B-R relatively close in time.

Will every device from now on that supports Dolby Digital Plus and MPL Lossless be "coatailing" HD-DVD

You really have a strong need to present the HD-DVD as the innovative forerunner and Blu-Ray as the "coatailer" (whatever that means).

And isn't that old news already, at least something was announced about this monts ago (yes it was then too reported by you as B-R "coatailing" HD-DVD )

 

[PC-Engine]

Pipe down biaatch....now eat crow.

Dolby Technologies Mandatory on both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc Next-Generation Packaged Media Formats


Dolby Digital Plus, MLP Lossless, Dolby Digital selected


San Francisco, September 23, 2004--As evidence of its pioneering efforts in multichannel audio entertainment, Dolby Laboratories announces that Dolby® audio technologies have been selected as mandatory formats for both High-Definition Digital Versatile Disc (HD DVD) and Blu-ray Disc. The DVD Forum has selected Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless™ as mandatory audio formats for HD DVD. The Blu-ray Disc Association announced that Dolby Digital will be a mandatory technology on its new format, the Blu-ray Disc. Both discs are next-generation packaged media formats designed to deliver high-definition picture quality.

"Dolby is a recognized leader in multichannel audio technologies. With that leadership comes a clear vision of the future, which includes enabling superior audio performance for next-generation HD video formats and home theater applications, while maintaining our commitment to the millions of households worldwide that have adopted Dolby Digital 5.1 as their entertainment standard," said Craig Eggers, Marketing Director, Consumer Electronics, Dolby Laboratories. "We are pleased that Dolby's technologies have been selected to be part of both exciting next-generation HD packaged media formats."

Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless for HD DVD

As the industry shifts from standard- to high-definition video entertainment, consumers will demand a packaged media format that offers superior HD images and surround sound audio playback. The DVD Forum's decision to include Dolby Digital Plus and MLP Lossless as mandatory audio standards for HD DVD ensures that the audio quality of HD DVD will be just as compelling as its video quality.

Dolby Digital Plus offers bit-rate and channel extendibility and is an extension of the popular Dolby Digital format, which is the audio standard for DVD-Video worldwide and North American high-definition television (HDTV). The DVD Forum's selection of Dolby Digital Plus as a mandatory audio standard assures future compatibility of HD DVD software media and playback devices with the more than 39 million A/V receivers equipped with Dolby Digital in homes today.

For instances where higher bit rates can be allocated for audio playback, such as HD DVD, Dolby Digital Plus delivers the highest quality audio performance possible from a highly sophisticated perceptual coding process. Dolby Digital Plus is designed to offer discrete channel coverage beyond the current 5.1 standard.

Dolby Digital Plus offers coding efficiencies for systems where bandwidth is at a premium or limited, such as next-generation cable, broadcast, and satellite systems. Earlier this year, the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) nominated Dolby Digital Plus as a Candidate Standard for future robust channel transmission. In anticipation of future packaged media business models and format flexibility, Dolby Digital Plus' efficiency will also enable simultaneous streaming of audio content and software playback. This capability would enable consumers to watch a movie while listening to artists' or directors' commentary streamed directly from the studio website, for example.

Dolby will demonstrate Dolby Digital Plus for high-definition applications at the 117th AES Convention, held this year in San Francisco, October 28-31.

MLP Lossless technology, licensed by Dolby Laboratories, has also been selected as mandatory audio standard of the HD DVD by the DVD Forum. MLP Lossless reproduces every nuance of an original performance, including elements that may have been previously lost or masked in CD playback. Because it delivers the highest audio fidelity possible without compromising picture quality or video bit rates, MLP Lossless is the perfect complement to Dolby Digital Plus. With MLP Lossless as a mandatory audio format, consumers can experience, for example, their favorite prerecorded concert performance at the highest level of audio fidelity and quality possible on an HD DVD.

The core audio technology behind multichannel DVD-Audio, MLP Lossless, enables content providers to encode multiple channels of 24-bit/96 kHz surround sound or 24-bit/192 kHz stereo content onto a DVD. Playback of content encoded in MLP Lossless is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master; nothing is lost during the encoding/decoding process. The result is the most realistic and involving high-fidelity audio available for packaged media.

Dolby Digital for Blu-ray Disc

The Blu-ray Association selected Dolby Digital as a mandatory audio standard for the Blu-ray Disc format, enabling Blu-ray Disc software and hardware to be compatible with the 39 million A/V receiver products worldwide that feature integrated Dolby Digital technologies.

And isn't that old news already, at least something was announced about this monts ago (yes it was then too reported by you as B-R "coatailing" HD-DVD

"We have over 50GBs, MPEG2 is enough and better.....oh wait let's throw in VC-1 and MPEG4AVC since HD DVD approved it just in case."

"We have over 50GBs, DTS and AC3 is enough....oh wait let's throw in DD+ and MLP lossless since HD DVD approved it just in case."

Eat more crow....

 

[London Geezer]

I'm more interested in DTS personally.