BR/HD-DVD Thread

[PC-Engine]

"This product has excellent potential," said David Rubenstein, president and chief operating officer of Cinram International Inc. "The combination of a traditional DVD with the new high-definition format creates a new and exciting option for consumers with more features than ever. HD/DVD 9 is a great way to introduce consumers to the full experience of high-definition video".

= Cheap stop gap solution.

Like getting an Xbox1.5 with the same chipset as the first but more RAM and different controllers, instead of a nice Xbox2.

Actually it's a way to allow people to buy one disc that has a full DL DVD movie and a full HD DVD movie that they can play in a regular DVD player and a HD DVD player. This isn't the 4.7GB/15GB hybrid that was talked about previously. This is a new 8.5GB/15GB hybrid. This has HUGE potential. If Warner Bros, Paramount, and Universal start releasing on this new format, a lot of people will have easy access to HD DVD movies without even knowing it. 8)

 

[KnightBreed]

Actually it's a way to allow people to buy one disc that has a full DL DVD movie and a full HD DVD movie that they can play in a regular DVD player and a HD DVD player. This isn't the 4.7GB/15GB hybrid that was talked about previously. This is a new 8.5GB/15GB hybrid. This has HUGE potential. If Warner Bros, Paramount, and Universal start releasing on this new format, a lot of people will have easy access to HD DVD movies without even knowing it. 8)

It is a mediocre solution for anything other than standard definition movies. 15GB isn't enough for a quality HD presentation. This just underscores the battle call for every HD DVD trumpeteer I've seen. "It's good enough for now." 15GB isn't even close, unless you enjoy watching undersampled, macroblocked movies in high definition.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Itsh good enough as long as IT ISN*T BLU-RAUH AND FROM SONNY!!!!

 

[one]

http://aacsla.org/specifications/default.htm

About the AACS 0.9 Release

On April 14th, 2005 the Advanced Access Content System License Administrator, LLC ("AACS LA") released for public review the 0.9 versions of the AACS LA technical specification books for optical media.[1] These specifications were developed through an unprecedented collaboration of leading companies from the CE, IT and entertainment industries. Consistent with its commitment to keep all interested participants apprised of progress, AACS LA is making these completed specifications publicly available to enable third parties to review and evaluate the technology.

To date, AACS LA has been working very closely with next generation optical media format promoters to help them understand the AACS LA technology, and to address format specific implementation issues. AACS LA has likewise engaged a diverse group of Contributor Members to provide in-depth feedback on the specifications and associated implementation requirements. The Contributor group is format-neutral, geographically diverse, and spans all of the potentially affected industries, including Motion Picture Studios, Consumer Electronics Companies, Information Technology Companies, Cable Operators, Record Labels, Chip Manufacturers, and Disc Replicators.

Based on the aggressive work schedule established by AACS LA and the extremely productive interactions between AACS LA, the format groups and the Contributors, it is anticipated that a public release of the license agreements and final specifications will be made in a timeframe consistent with the announced product plans for next generation digital entertainment devices that will use AACS LA technology.

[1] The three books for review are: Introduction and Common Cryptographic Elements; Prerecorded Video Book (format-independent); Recordable Video Book (format-independent).

 

[PC-Engine]

Actually it's a way to allow people to buy one disc that has a full DL DVD movie and a full HD DVD movie that they can play in a regular DVD player and a HD DVD player. This isn't the 4.7GB/15GB hybrid that was talked about previously. This is a new 8.5GB/15GB hybrid. This has HUGE potential. If Warner Bros, Paramount, and Universal start releasing on this new format, a lot of people will have easy access to HD DVD movies without even knowing it. 8)

It is a mediocre solution for anything other than standard definition movies. 15GB isn't enough for a quality HD presentation. This just underscores the battle call for every HD DVD trumpeteer I've seen. "It's good enough for now." 15GB isn't even close, unless you enjoy watching undersampled, macroblocked movies in high definition.

What are you talking about? Why would you need MPEG4 AVC/ VC-1 if 15GB only affords you standard definition?

The first DVDs were single layer btw.

Also how do you know it's not good enough? That's just plain silly man. You haven't seen a HD DVD movie on a 15GB SL disc so I don't know what you're babbling about. T2EE only uses about 6GB for the actual movie AFAIK. Of course it wasn't running at full 1920x1080 HD resolution, but the math is pretty simple.

 

[jvd]

"This product has excellent potential," said David Rubenstein, president and chief operating officer of Cinram International Inc. "The combination of a traditional DVD with the new high-definition format creates a new and exciting option for consumers with more features than ever. HD/DVD 9 is a great way to introduce consumers to the full experience of high-definition video".

= Cheap stop gap solution.

Like getting an Xbox1.5 with the same chipset as the first but more RAM and different controllers, instead of a nice Xbox2.

Heh , what isn't a stop gap ? The ps3 will be a stop gap on the road to the ps 4

I've said it before and i will say it again , both hd-dvd and bluray are crap. I rather them all look into that red laser 100gig disc those people are working on . IT would have been best to wait an extra year and make a huge leap

 

[Titanio]

The leap from DVD to Bluray is enough - it's about the same, in terms of capacity, as the leap from CD to DVD.

Bluray is enough to store a high quality encoding of a 1080p movie, and it supports improved audio standards too. That's enough to make it a more permanent solution. 1080p won't be common in people's living rooms for the foreseeable future, so it's certainly not a stop-gap.

WM9 is interesting, but really is just a stop-gap measure till we have a true next-gen optical disc format. Despite supporting hd resolutions, the compression used/lower bitrates are unacceptable when you consider that you still have to buy new hardware and a new library of content. Hollywood doesn't recognise it as a replacement for HD-DVD or Bluray, heck, MS doesn't.

What I'd like to see next year are DVDs and Bluray discs on the shelves, side by side. One is the SDTV version, one the HDTV version. Simple as that.

 

[PC-Engine]

WMV9 aka VC-1 is one of the codecs used in HD DVD and Blu-ray...

 

[Titanio]

WMV9 aka VC-1 is one of the codecs used in HD DVD and Blu-ray...

I'm aware, but it's one of a number of available codecs on the formats - others offer higher bitrates, and hopefully they're likely to be more widely used for those movies that'll fit on the disc using those codecs, at least. It really is simple, though. As a consumer, which would you prefer? Buying a WM9-capable player and rebuying your library in WM9, or buying a next-gen DVD player and rebuying your library in it? It's the same investment, but one carrys more limitations than the other.

 

[jvd]

The leap from DVD to Bluray is enough - it's about the same, in terms of capacity, as the leap from CD to DVD.

Not good enough sorry , should have waited another year or two , dvds still have life in them

 

[Titanio]

The leap from DVD to Bluray is enough - it's about the same, in terms of capacity, as the leap from CD to DVD.

Not good enough sorry , should have waited another year or two , dvds still have life in them

Of course they do. But DVDs will still have life in them for a long long time to come. SD-DVDs and next-gen DVDs can exist side by side in the market perfectly well (until, eventually, SD-DVDs are overtaken by next gen dvds in popularity). How long do you want to wait? Seriously, HDTVs are in enough homes now to start providing a hi-def DVD format to push HD out and further drive it into the mainstream. Current DVDs won't go anywhere for the foreseeable future either way - plenty more people still use SDTV than don't. But if HDTV is to take off, there need to be more carrots there for the consumer, and hi-def movies are one more.

I'm sure pretty much all HDTV owners would agree that there's no reason to wait. Why do you think we should? For even higher resolution? 99.99999999999999% of displays out there can't even show 1080p which these next gen discs can support (with high quality encoding). The jump from standard DVD on a standard TV to 1080i/p or 720p even on a HDTV is BIG (imo at least, particularly if you have a big screen or projector). There's no point in sacrificing that jump now for a bigger jump (much) later - I certainly don't want to be watching SD DVDs for the next 5 or 10 years. It's kind of like the ol' PC-buying syndrome - you could keep waiting forever.

 

[Ty]

Not good enough sorry , should have waited another year or two , dvds still have life in them

The difference between 480p and 1080i/720p is HUGE.

 

[Cryect]

15GB isn't even close, unless you enjoy watching undersampled, macroblocked movies in high definition.

Uh 15GB is plenty for most movies... I've watched several 1080i movies at about 15GB MPEG2 encoded.

 

[aaronspink]

15GB isn't even close, unless you enjoy watching undersampled, macroblocked movies in high definition.

Uh 15GB is plenty for most movies... I've watched several 1080i movies at about 15GB MPEG2 encoded.

Bah, call me back when someone has a 1.8 TB solution and I'll be interested. Right now neither Blu-Ray NOR HD-DVD have enough storage capacity. They are both off by a minimum of 10x.

 

[PC-Engine]

Buying a WM9-capable player and rebuying your library in WM9, or buying a next-gen DVD player and rebuying your library in it? It's the same investment, but one carrys more limitations than the other.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but Blu-ray and HD DVD players HAVE to support VC-1 anyway since it's part of the specs. Whether studios decide to use VC-1 or AVC is entirely up to them, it makes no difference to the consumer because all BR and HD DVD players/recorders are required to support those two codecs.

 

[randycat99]

How much credence is in the "38 Mb/s" figure that is cited for HDDVD/BR? (I heard from someone who heard...) Anybody do the math on this?

38 Mb/s ==> 4.75 MB/s ==> 17.1 GB/hr of HD movie ==> potentially 35 GB needed for a 2 hr movie? (Peter Jackson might be SOL...)

For comparison's sake, I've heard 19 Mb/s is somewhat customary for ota HD broadcast...

DVD is what...1.2 MB/s, no? (seriously, I am by no means solid on that)
==> 9.6 Mb/s

HD might pack some 5 or 6x more data than DVD (SD-ish) at its best? So conservatively, we have 5x more data, but an increase of only 4x in data rate (going from DVD to HDDVD/BR)? ...better hope that MPEG4 can truly preserve quality while achieving its increased data compression benefits. Personally, it makes me feel uneasy ("more quality" for equal data storage would have been more preferable than just "equal quality" for less data storage, imo). So even 38 Mb/s might be pushing it (in the name of PQ), and we see already that places some considerable bounds for data storage of a "2 hr movie". ...but then again, 19 Mb/s might be considered the "Cadillac" of bit rates for HD broadcast. So 38 might seem "godly", by comparison? Then there's that whole 1080i/60 vs 1080p/24 which could make for more fudge factor... I guess we are missing a good point of reference, so we can at least have some idea if "19" is enough, "38" is enough, or maybe something else entirely is required to be "enough"...

 

[-tkf-]

How much credence is in the "38 Mb/s" figure that is cited for HDDVD/BR? (I heard from someone who heard...) Anybody do the math on this?

38 Mb/s ==> 4.75 MB/s ==> 17.1 GB/hr of HD movie ==> potentially 35 GB needed for a 2 hr movie? (Peter Jackson might be SOL...)

That would be MPEG2 then, HD with ""MPEG4" should be around 15-20mbit

Of course the powers that be will say that 8mbit is more than enough.

 

[randycat99]

Of course the powers that be will say that 8mbit is more than enough.

Heh, heh- excellent point there! I'd suggest caution in using MPEG4 to achieve radically higher compressions. It's fine if your goal is to squeeze a DVD unto a CD, but we're talking about HD that will be scrutinized on 50+ in, high-resolution displays... I predict we may have to take a few steps back from those compression numbers, to remain comfortable with preserving quality of the source in that context.

 

[PC-Engine]

We will not have 60fps HD movies simply because 99.9% of films are shot on 35mm at 24fps.

 

[wco81]

At AVS Forum, there are guys from Microsoft and other companies which will be providing the technologies used.

They claim that they can get good 1080p24 video at 10-12 Mbps, maybe a bit less and that beyond about 16 Mbps, they see diminishing returns.

Both formats will have the option of supporting lossless audio streams. It's up to the studios to use the highest bit rates.

The storage capacities are there as well as the throughput (incidentally, BR is capable of 54 Mbps with the prospect for 72 Mbps in later revs).

Of course, the higher the bitrates they use, they more of a need they will have for dual layers. The first DVD releases were single layers before they got the costs down. So the speculation is, the first releases for BR or HD-DVD will be limited to single layers.

The other thing they're talking about is the new DRM system, AACS, which will be used by both formats. They want to use Internet connections to renew keys but they also will download (and save on local storage) or stream certain audio and video content. This content might include subtitles or extras like commentary tracks.

But the need for Internet connections raise the fears that the MPAA might be interested in a Divx-like scheme, where they would sell unlimited-license discs for a high price or limited-viewings discs for less but which you would unlock by paying and unlocking additional viewings online.