BR/HD-DVD Thread

[PC-Engine]

This is what you said about Superbit.

And this is what the dictionary says:

hack

<jargon> 1. Originally, a quick job that produces what is
needed, but not well.



I think it's fairly obvious you haven't been able to get over that super bit thread hence the desparate need to try and inject it into this one....bad idea.

 

[ChryZ]

Superbit is no hack, its an quality attribute/feature. Superbit works well within the DVD standard. It would be a hack, if they relaxed the norm compliance e.g. by passing over 10Mbps, but thats not the case. Superbit is just another consumer option, which focus on picture and sound quality, instead of using a lower picture and sound quality in favour of extra content (trailers, commentary, etc).

 

[PC-Engine]

A simple remaster greatly improves audio/visual quality without having to go to a higher bitrate. SB is just a hack that offers marginal improvement..most of which comes from the remastered film. It doesn't offer any boost in video resolution.

 

[Ty]

Little point in arguing about this since his definition is simply his opinion (admittedly one that doesn't seem consistent but whatever).

 

[-tkf-]

A simple remaster greatly improves audio/visual quality without having to go to a higher bitrate. SB is just a hack that offers marginal improvement..most of which comes from the remastered film. It doesn't offer any boost in video resolution.

A simple remaster, nothing simple about that (how would you know).

A remaster with a high bitrate is always better than a remaster with a low bitrate.

A bad master with a high bitrate is always better than a bad master with a low bitrate. Hell the worse the master the more the bits are needed.

How can a higher bitrate be a hack? oh yes, because you say so.

 

[PC-Engine]

...because a slightly higher bitrate itself only offers marginal improvement and does not have the benefit of higher resolution.

Non-SB remasters always look better than the originals while retaining the bonus material. SB don't always look better because they don't always get remastered. In other words remastering creates the bulk of the visual improvement not a measely 1-2 Mbps increase in bitrate.

 

[-tkf-]

...because a slightly higher bitrate itself only offers marginal improvement and does not have the benefit of higher resolution.

Non-SB remasters always look better than the originals while retaining the bonus material. SB don't always look better because they don't always get remastered. In other words remastering creates the bulk of the visual improvement not a measely 1-2 Mbps increase in bitrate.

Whenever we "master" a DVD we have a bit budget, so many bits for this and that. And belive me, every bit counts when it comes to the quality. 2 mbit is alot, 6 mbit vs 4 mbit well it's a 50% bit gain so it matters.

I have seen lots of commercial DVDs filled with extras that take up so much space that it compromises the quality of the movie itself. What are often done in order to save bits on titles like that, is a filter that that removes small details/grain for the movie (soft image) because it's easier to encode.

"Superbit" for me please and let the bloated comprimised releases die (in my dreams )

 

[London Geezer]

...

 

[KnightBreed]

Gentlemen, can you please take the off-topic superbit discussion to PM? This thread has some interesting links and information and I would loathe to see it locked.

 

[cthellis42]

Well, as it was three days since the last comments along that line, I'd assume it safe to say that topic died another death, and that this thread will mainly become active again when there's another on-topic article out there that's sufficiently interesting to post.

 

[-tkf-]

Gentlemen, can you please take the off-topic superbit discussion to PM? This thread has some interesting links and information and I would loathe to see it locked.

Actually Superbit has something todo with bitrates and storage space.

HD-DVD vs BluRay

 

[KnightBreed]

Gentlemen, can you please take the off-topic superbit discussion to PM? This thread has some interesting links and information and I would loathe to see it locked.

Actually Superbit has something todo with bitrates and storage space.

HD-DVD vs BluRay

No, Superbit is relegated solely to DVD as a marketing tool. It's existance has absolutely nothing to do with HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

 

[KnightBreed]

To get the thread moving along:

Why do you need higher output when you don't burn a disc?

Since when did the HD DVD format become read only?

Interestingly enough, the first drives available from NEC will be read only. It would be unwise to assume the Blu-ray group is alone with it's issues of high priced components.

http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/53019

Initially it's player-only for HD DVD
NEC wants to put the first PC drive for HD DVD-ROM on the market in September 2005. The price for traders is to be between 300 and 500 US dollars. Toward the end of 2005 Toshiba and Sanyo are to launch the first home HD-DVD players with end-customer prices of about 1,000 US dollars.

An HD DVD disc can store from 15 to 30 GByte of data, which suffices for about three to eight hours of high-resolution movie enjoyment encoded in VC-1, H.264 or MPEG-4/AVC. For copy-protection purposes the HD DVD uses the Advanced Access Content System (AACS), which not only allows distributors to prevent the making of copies but also to take control of the playing modalities.

The first HD-DVD drives will play CDs and DVDs, but, unlike the competitor format of the Blu-ray Disc, will not be equipped with a recording function. The reason given for this by Ryoichi Hayatsu, the head of the Department for Storage Products at NEC, was the high price still being charged for the diodes for the blue laser, which did not as yet permit reasonably-priced drives to be mass-marketed. Mr. Hayatsu in addition suspected that the film studios were favoring formats for which no recording devices existed.

Support by Hollywood was enormously important where the introduction of new formats was concerned, he noted. NEC declined to give a date for when the first recorders would become available. So far only the specifications for the re-recordable HD DVD-RW and the pre-recorded ROM version have been adopted. The final details on the future recordable HD DVD-R the DVD Forum intends to adopt in February of next year. (Robert W. Smith) / (jk/c't)

 

[cthellis42]

We all know that BR was first-and-foremost aimed and designed towards recordability, and HD-DVD towards easy readability. Both will--undoubtly--handle all functions just fine, though, and will enter the market at a reasonable pace. They've just been aiming in different directions first.

 

[wco81]

If BR and HD-DVD players hit the market around the same time, around the same price and BR had recordability and HD-DVD did not, how could that be advantageous for HD-DVD?

I think people have been conditioned not to be expected to record packaged media content easily. So they may not see BR hardware as being capable of copying movies but they will at least see that they can record TV programs, making BR hardware more full-featured or better value.

BR manufacturers would be smart not to try to extract a big premium for that recordability.

 

[cthellis42]

A recordable device will NOT EVER "hit the market at the same price" as a non-recordable device. Not for any new tech, and not from any reputable companies.

HD-DVD will start off with some players that are lower, and BR will likely first bring over their recorders--since those are the devices manufacturers have been making now. Cheaper BR players will likely come in a bit before PS3's launch and be boosted by the PS3 itself, and HD-DVD recorders will probably start filtering in 6-12 months after the first players. Each others' price levels in accordance to the other will probably resemble the usual sway we've seen from DVD and the first DVD recorders coming in--but player-vs-recorder should have a healthy premium between them.

 

[-tkf-]

Gentlemen, can you please take the off-topic superbit discussion to PM? This thread has some interesting links and information and I would loathe to see it locked.

Actually Superbit has something todo with bitrates and storage space.

HD-DVD vs BluRay

No, Superbit is relegated solely to DVD as a marketing tool. It's existance has absolutely nothing to do with HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

My argument has been that more bits = equal better quality. Pretty plain and simple. As is the case with the principle of Superbit titles, marketing tool or not. Some DVDs compromise the quality of the main movie because they keep the release to one disc and put lots of extras on them. At least that is one thing that isn't happening to Superbit titles, marketing tool or not. I am fully aware that there is non Superbit titles with just as high bitrates as Superbit titles. And there is Superbit titles that looks like shit.

I imagine the same thing happening to HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and naturally i think the format with most space would equal less compromise.

 

[wco81]

How much of a premium would recorders have over playrs?

If HD-DVD players come out at $1000 and BR recorders are at $1500 or more, BR will lose a lot of ground, all other factors (movie selection and price) being equal.

The other thing is media cost. If BR rewriteable media is like $50 a piece, that will be a very hard sell. Obviously, blue laser diodes will remain costly to make for awhile but if you look at dual-layer burners these days, there is little if any premium over single-layer burners. Yet DL media is so much more expensive that DL burning is just not that big yet.

Again, if there's a big format war, maybe BR companies will do irrational things, like minimize the premium and keep recordable media prices down.

 

[PC-Engine]

20GB High-Def VMD disc launched

New Medium Enterprises Inc. announced the public unveiling of the highly anticipated pre-industrial VMD (Versatile MulitLayer Disc), the next generation HD Disc & Drive containing 20GB of storage capacity on the current Red Laser technology platforms.

The company is set for launching production and sales of 15 GB, 20 GB, 25 GB and 30 GB Discs & Drives by Fall 2005. The drives will be inherently backward compatible with the existing pre-recorded and recordable DVD and CD formats.

Invites for the public demonstration will include financial newspapers, magazines, wire services and feature syndicates trade periodicals covering the optical storage industry, as well as selected members of the investment community and key players in the media and optical storage industries. Demonstration will be held in London, United Kingdom, in January 2005. The scope and the detailed schedule of the event will be announced at a later date. Thereafter, the company plans to conduct a series of road shows across the globe to demonstrate the VMD products to select groups at various times and locations to be announced.

VMD was recently demonstrated to enthusiastic groups of industry leaders in several countries and was hailed and embraced as a breakthrough and compelling solution for cost effective High-Definition pre-recorded discs and players.

``We are thrilled with the opportunity of unveiling this remarkable technology to the public,'' says Ethel Schwartz, CEO of NMEN. ``We anticipate a similar resounding response from the attendees as we have seen from the enthusiastic industry leaders that have already viewed our VMD products demonstration.''

The pre-recorded VMD has four layers on one side for an initial capacity of 20 GB and is entirely based on the current Red Laser DVD industrial infrastructure. VMD is designed for viewing High Definition (HD) content requiring high storage capacity and high bit rate (up to 40 Mbs), such as full-motion pictures, sports entertainment and other demanding video content and data. Pre-recorded HD VMD's are capable of playing next-generation, high-definition movies and other video content, catering to the vast consumer base of owners of HDTV Television and large screen sets.

NMEN anticipates that by spring 2005 it will achieve pre-production 30GB of storage capacity with bit rates up to 60 Mbs, capable of playing even higher quality High-Definition content for HDTV and Digital Cinema on a single pre-recorded VMD.

In 2006, the company will start manufacturing cost-effective 50 GB VMD's on Red Laser, for HDTV and Digital Cinema. With minimal changes of its technology, the company can manufacture recordable VMD as well. With future applications in sight, the company has begun developing Blue Laser VMD systems with up to 1 Terabyte capacity for high-end Digital Cinema and Video-On-Demand (VOD) applications.

 

[Farid]

20GB High-Def VMD disc launched

This HD media stuff is really getting out of hand.
Now, even low key startups want to fight the big fight with the big boys.