"Blu-ray support a last minute switch, Microsoft says..."

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050927_190208.html

Redmond (WA) - In an exclusive interview with Tom's Hardware Guide, one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee said that decisions regarding whether his company and Intel would back and promote HD DVD as a high-definition video disc standard, were determined only within the last few days. Prior to some critical recent developments and announcements, both companies - which had proclaimed neutrality - may have been ready to back Blu-ray.

"Until now, we viewed ourselves more as a technology provider for both groups," said Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media, and a key developer of the VC-1 codec currently in use by both HD DVD and Blu-ray. He revealed that Microsoft and Intel had produced a list of what he called "key requirements for the success of next-generation DVD." For several months, while those requirements were being circulated, both companies worked on developing key standards to be implemented by both formats. Ribas said he was directly involved with implementing the VC-1 codec, and also worked jointly with Disney to produce the iHD interactive layer considered by both camps, but eventually adopted only by HD DVD (Disney is a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association.) During that time, Intel and Microsoft both maintained their public neutrality. But very recently, from the two companies' perspective, things started unraveling unexpectedly for Blu-ray.

"Our decision is based mainly on where the formats are today," Ribas said, referring to Microsoft. "A year and a half ago, both format organizations had very similar goals, and to some extent, the story of Blu-ray was actually very powerful. It had higher capacity, it had what we would consider benefits at the time. But then as time went on, and we'd seen what's the reality of both formats today, and what were promises versus what's proven and what's real, that's when we decided to make the decision."

The rest can be read at tom's hardware - Vysez ;)

Thanks to X-2001 on the TeamXbox forums for finding this... and this should be a good follow up for a previous thread that was brought up about the Microsoft/Intel move towards HD-DVD.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23991

Let the comments ensue!
 
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Microsoft said:
The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs. " With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
Am I dreaming or what? :rolleyes:
http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmre700/dmre700.htm

single-sided 2-layer LM-BRM50 Blank 50GB Blu-Ray disc Approx. £40
lmbrm50lrg.jpg
 
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If MS is putting their weight behind HD-DVD, they really should consider offering HD-DVD support on all Xbox 360s right out of the gate, especially considering both their promotion of HD resolutions and Mark Rein's note that next-gen games will take up 20GB.

Then again, maybe 20GB isn't that realistic for consoles with only 512MB RAM--and shared between CPU and GPU (and sound, to boot).
 
one said:
Am I dreaming or what? :rolleyes:
http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmre700/dmre700.htm

single-sided 2-layer LM-BRM50 Blank 50GB Blu-Ray disc Approx. £40
lmbrm50lrg.jpg
That's the cartridge type BR disc.
I'm not sure, but when you take out the cartridge wouldn't the BR disc need better coating, thus making a non-cartridge BR disc more difficult to manufacture, and thus being currently "only in the lab".
That doesn't automatically mean that a 50GB no cartridge discs would not be ready for mass market as Blu Ray launces.
 
rabidrabbit said:
That's the cartridge type BR disc.
I'm not sure, but when you take out the cartridge wouldn't the BR disc need better coating, thus making a non-cartridge BR disc more difficult to manufacture, and thus being currently "only in the lab".
That doesn't automatically mean that a 50GB no cartridge discs would not be ready for mass market as Blu Ray launces.
That's reasonable. Now the question is, "have you seen 30GB HD-DVD, let alone 15GB disc, outside of Toshiba lab?"
 
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Pure FUD to imply that BD will stay only at 25 GB. MS might make the argument that BD won't be able to replicate 50 GB for a year or two.

Of course, they won't mention that the product cycle of these formats will be at least 10 years so they would have you believe that any manufacturing constraint will exist for the whole product cycle.

We know the reasons MS was never going to support Blu-Ray:

1. It's in the PS3.
2. It's using BD+ in addition to AACS, which MS has more control over. BD+ uses a virtual machine which may trump AACS.
3. It's using Java for interactivity, not the MS-developed iHD.
4. It makes VC-1 less crucial because it supports MPEG2 and MPEG4.
5. MS has already cut deals with Warners and possibly other HD-DVD studios to release HD-DVD titles using VC-1.

Like they really cared about capacity. If anything, greater capacity makes using VC-1 less likely. That argument is about as convincing as saying the XeCPU does better at general purpose code while ignoring the Cell's advantage with floating point.
 
The article specifically says HD-DVD roms vs BD-roms. The picture of the recordable cartridge is sort of moot. I'm not sure if thats a significant issue from a mass manufacturing standpoint or not, but they aren't talking about the (very expensive) recordable discs.
 
one said:
Am I dreaming or what? :rolleyes:
http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmre700/dmre700.htm

single-sided 2-layer LM-BRM50 Blank 50GB Blu-Ray disc Approx. £40
lmbrm50lrg.jpg

um, notice you can't buy it? Also Panasonic Japan isn't even advertising it on its website.

AFAIK, there are no dual layer BR products on the market. Its easy to slap a box up there, label it prototype, and call it a dual layer recorder. Its another thing to be able to mass produce it with quality.

At this point I would take the word of MS/Intel more than a BR enthusiasts.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.
 
wco81 said:
We know the reasons MS was never going to support Blu-Ray:
1. It's in the PS3.
2. It's using BD+ in addition to AACS, which MS has more control over. BD+ uses a virtual machine which may trump AACS.
3. It's using Java for interactivity, not the MS-developed iHD.
4. It makes VC-1 less crucial because it supports MPEG2 and MPEG4.
5. MS has already cut deals with Warners and possibly other HD-DVD studios to release HD-DVD titles using VC-1.
That brings up some questions. If Sony wanted MS support for Blu-ray, should they put it into a product that's a direct competitor to an important MS product? Or did they not want MS support? And will the ps3's install base be big enough to offset MS's support of HD DVD?

Ok, I'm not really sure those questions matter, because whichever wins over the porn industry will likely be the last one standing.
 
aaronspink said:
um, notice you can't buy it? Also Panasonic Japan isn't even advertising it on its website.

AFAIK, there are no dual layer BR products on the market. Its easy to slap a box up there, label it prototype, and call it a dual layer recorder. Its another thing to be able to mass produce it with quality.

At this point I would take the word of MS/Intel more than a BR enthusiasts.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

aaron, can you hook me up on a dual layer 30gb HD-DVD please? :)
 
aaronspink said:
um, notice you can't buy it? Also Panasonic Japan isn't even advertising it on its website.
You can buy it in every major electronic store in Japan.
http://store.yahoo.co.jp/digicon/lm-brm50.html
http://www.yodobashi.com/enjoy/more/i/cat_1045_136_11387366/23785446.html
http://joshinweb.jp/servlet/emall.odr_wp?SHP=2&CRY=0000000798
http://www.yamada-denkiweb.com/item/list.php/category/10/14/11/

Panasonic advertise it.
http://panasonic.jp/media/blu_ray.html
http://prodb.matsushita.co.jp/product/info.do?pg=04&hb=LM-BRM50

A list of internet shops in Japan that have LM-BRM50. The cheapest price is 5,969 yen ($52.81)
http://www.kakaku.com/prdsearch/detail.asp?prdkey=07103010523

aaronspink said:
AFAIK, there are no dual layer BR products on the market. Its easy to slap a box up there, label it prototype, and call it a dual layer recorder. Its another thing to be able to mass produce it with quality.
The release date of this single-sided double layer disc is 7/31/2004.
 
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Ok so we can't buy dual layer HDDVDs or BluRay discs... When the heck are these things supposed to be out? We've been talking about them for bloody ages, what's taking this long?
 
thatdude90210 said:
That brings up some questions. If Sony wanted MS support for Blu-ray, should they put it into a product that's a direct competitor to an important MS product? Or did they not want MS support? And will the ps3's install base be big enough to offset MS's support of HD DVD?

that does not matter. Ken's intent is to have the PS3 make the Windows PC obsolete.
 
london-boy said:
Ok so we can't buy dual layer HDDVDs or BluRay discs... When the heck are these things supposed to be out? We've been talking about them for bloody ages, what's taking this long?

You can buy dual layer BluRay disc already.

But really they aren't that convenient. I am starting to think multiple high capacity hdd to form several TBs of storage is the way to go for HD content era.
 
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MrSingh said:
that does not matter. Ken's intent is to have the PS3 make the Windows PC obsolete.

I don't think even Kutaragi's ambition is big enough to fool himself into thinking something like that now days, especially since such similar plans fell flat on it's face with EE (even with PS2 being a runaway sucesss).
 
V3 said:
You can buy dual layer BluRay disc already.

But really they aren't that convenient. I am starting to think multiple high capacity hdd to form several TBs of storage is the way to go for HD content era.

Well that will cost a lot of money though. 500GB HDDs today cost quite a bit, i can't think how much it would cost me to build a multi-TB system. Eventually BDROMs and HDDVD will become quite cheap, the difference will be quite large.
But i agree, they aren't as convenient.
 
I wish people could stop this pissing-match between BR and HDDVD.

One, it isn't console-related (as no HDDVD in any so far announced console)

And Two: it isn't even interesting. WHATEVER HAPPENS HAPPENS, no matter how much smack we talk about these two formats in this forum. Either one of them crashes and burns spectacularly and the other goes on to reap all the glory, or else they sort of co-exist like some new-era cold war (and I'm not speculating which of them would be the bastion of freedom and liberty and which would be the Evil Empire... :LOL:).

So can't we all just drop this already, coz we've already said all that can be said more than once. It's pointless, and boring, and a waste of time, server storage and bandwidth.
 
Though I agree with your sentiments Guden, the topics clearly labelled as BR/HDDVD related. No-one's forcing you to read every thread ;)
 
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