Blogcast Audio of Tech Engineers(?) on PS3 vs Xbox360

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A few more observations on Major Nelsons blog:

I think their breakdown of the RSX architecture is logical, all the math seems to add up and it looks to me to be a good bet?

Their updated comparison of shader ops looks quite shaky. They seem to be doing exactly what they accuse Sony of doing with their TFLOPS figures, which is looking for anything that might conceivably count as an op. If this is meant to be anything like a meaningfull like for like comparison, then I don't see how they can include the 32 flow control operations, and I think the vertex fetch tesselation ops are dodgy too. I mean shader ops is a dodgy metric anyway, but they are the ones trying to make comparisons. Any other thoughts?
 
The reason MS did this of course, is because they knew they were about to be "beaten" on CPU GFLOPS, so they sought to dilute that advantage by using "NV FLOPS". Sony then simply used this to their advantage.

Well that was because comparing GFLOPS of a EE to the P3 didn't make a whole lot of sense since the P3 didn't need the GFLOPS because it didn't do any of the TnL. It was in fact SONY who started the whole GFLOPS comparison to mislead people. So now instead of CPU GFLOPS, we have total system GFLOPS. ;)
 
Having listened to the whole thing now, here's the edited highlights including verbatim quotes where applicable too so people don't need ot listen to it to understand the wierd things said.

DISCLAIMER : Before I say any more, I'm not on an MS bashing mission! Some stuff they pointed out was valid, like the saving on bandwidth of eDRAM or SPE's not having a branch predictor. I'm including valid points they raised (ignoring some stuff already known) and points of these I question, but also their total baloney.

About Cell's SPE's :
"They're double precision math is extremely slow"
At first that strikes me as total bunk. 20+ DP GFlops for a single chip is good, let alone extremely slow. But now I wonder if taken as a single core, how does SPE's DP performance compare with a core of PPC or Pentium 4 maybe? Anyone got any comparisons for DP performance?

They explained their take on SPE's not having any cache.
SPE's have no cache, only 256 kb local RAM. In a CPU you write to main RAM and the data is stored in cache in case you need it again. SPEs don't have this. SPEs can only read/write to local ram and if they want data that's not in the local store, they have to fetch from main RAM.
"It's almost as if the main memory is a Filesystem and you have to read from it and write to it when your done...For General programming this is pretty terrible."
This is first class bunk. It's the same with any processor. If the data isn't available on the fast local storage you have to fetch it from main memory. And in this respect Cell ahs the advantage as it has more local memory than then XeCPU. Don't know what they're talking about here!

Asked what it meant for gamers they replied
perhaps longer development times, or it could mean the SPE's are underutilised.

Talking about eDRAM on Xenos
"We're able with that to get, to...to get all the way up to 256 Gigabytes a second to main memory."
There it is. 256 GB/s to main memory according to these guys :oops: To be fair I think it more likely they don't interview well than set out to present such false info as this (I hope!)


Regards HDTV rendering
the interviewees said that 1080i renders evey 1080 lines every frame in virtually every case. The only difference is the little chip at the end and whether it's sending 520 lines per field or 1080.
They basically say 1080i and 1080p rendering is exactly the same resolution/throughput requirement, just a bit different output whether you send interleaved fields or the whole frame. In this respect I guess they assume 1080p is 30fps, in which case they're right.


Regards system performance:
MS took a very conservative approach on the 1 teraflop system performance.
"Again our teraflop was extremely conservative."
This was a funny part of the interview as they said teraflop figures was basically stretching the truth until you were making them up!


About Launch titles and exploiting hardware.
They observed the programmaing challenges. For XB360 they described development beginning on a single thread. Then when you want more power you could take some code from out of your thread and port it to one of the other cores. Being symmetric that wasn't a problem. On Cell you need to write for asymmetric cores.
I understand this and it makes sense, though would development really work that way, porting bits of code? Shouldn't multithreaded code be designed as such from the ground up?


Regards what was shown at E3
They said demos were running on Alpha kit Dual G5
"and it has the ATi R300 on it."

All in all, there was plenty of wrong information and total nonsense in with the truths. I don't know if it's just they don't know what they're talking about or if they actually are trying to mislead people, but seriously, the complaints about Cell's local storage? Writing data to and from system RAM being bad for general purpose code? What are they on?!
 
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

I definitely see a crusade on your behalf. ;)
 
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

:LOL: :LOL:


"1TFLOP was conservative"


"256GB/s to main memory"
 
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

:LOL: :LOL:

"1TFLOP was conservative"

"256GB/s to main memory"

More conservative than 2 TFLOPS. ;) :LOL:
 
The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me
It's as fair and reasonable as any Shopping Channel advertisment.

They need visual aids though - maybe some footage of 360 coating resisting laser beams, or demonstration of it's (cleaning)power. 8)
 
Fafalada said:
The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me
It's as fair and reasonable as any Shopping Channel advertisment.

They need visual aids though - maybe some footage of 360 coating resisting laser beams, or demonstration of it's (cleaning)power. 8)

I think it comes down to theoretical vs realworld. ;)

It would be interesting if you could site anything in that interview you disagree with than resorting to a fanboi like one liner...or two liner. :LOL:
 
PC-Engine said:
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

:LOL: :LOL:

"1TFLOP was conservative"

"256GB/s to main memory"

More conservative than 2 TFLOPS. ;) :LOL:

You must admit though, this interview tops the "killzone iz teh reeltyme" bullcrap and then some....
 
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

:LOL: :LOL:

"1TFLOP was conservative"

"256GB/s to main memory"

More conservative than 2 TFLOPS. ;) :LOL:

You must admit though, this interview tops the "killzone iz teh reeltyme" bullcrap and then some....

Uh actually no. Again if you could site some valid examples within context it would be appreciated. ;)

Did you even listen to it? ;)

If it's so misleading then it shouldn't be that difficult to site some examples would it? :LOL:
 
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
london-boy said:
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)

The interview sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. It's understandable that it's slighty biased. Anyway they gave reasons and explained everything they said so I don't understand why you're quoting out of context in an attempt to distort what they were saying.

:LOL: :LOL:

"1TFLOP was conservative"

"256GB/s to main memory"

More conservative than 2 TFLOPS. ;) :LOL:

You must admit though, this interview tops the "killzone iz teh reeltyme" bullcrap and then some....

Of course then again it was meant for x360 fans not an unbiased expose... leave that to arstechnica and beyond3d

The interview isnt bad but many of the questions are leading much like G4TV's "Is that gonna be realtime, man im buying a PS3!" crap.
 
PC-Engine said:
Well that was because comparing GFLOPS of a EE to the P3 didn't make a whole lot of sense since the P3 didn't need the GFLOPS because it didn't do any of the TnL. It was in fact SONY who started the whole GFLOPS comparison to mislead people. So now instead of CPU GFLOPS, we have total system GFLOPS. ;)

I have to say I think the difference is night and day. The PS2 comparisons were contextually misleading, in that there is little point in comparing a general purpose CPU against one designed to process media data; however the metric used was a standard one and the figures quoted were essentially correct for both platforms. The FLOPS figure quoted by Nvidia when they launched the GF256 was a non-standard metric that they had essentially made up. It was deliberately used to compare against PS2, and had the desired effect, which was that everyone quoted it and said OMFG it's 10* more powerfull than PS2. I don't like the fact that both Sony and MS are now using what look to me like made up metrics, but I don't see that Sony had any choice but to enter that game once MS had published their specs.

I also think it is fair to say that in the last gen MS misused specifications far more than their competitors. Whereas Sony quoted raw specs, they did at least provide some parameters on which to judge those specs. MS quoted top end raw specs, without any parameters, and then deliberately compared their specs against their competitors knowing they were not a like for like comparison. What on earth is the point comparing Game Cube's in game 12M polys/sec against Xbox's 125M polys/sec (especially when it was a raw transform figure for the GPU in isolation). By Xbox spec standards the PS2 was aprox 105M polys/sec.

There are important differences between: presenting real metrics in the most favourable light; using made up metrics (without standards of measurement); deliberately comparing disimilar metrics as though they were similar; deliberately comparing inconsequential numbers.
 
gmoran said:
PC-Engine said:
Well that was because comparing GFLOPS of a EE to the P3 didn't make a whole lot of sense since the P3 didn't need the GFLOPS because it didn't do any of the TnL. It was in fact SONY who started the whole GFLOPS comparison to mislead people. So now instead of CPU GFLOPS, we have total system GFLOPS. ;)

I have to say I think the difference is night and day. The PS2 comparisons were contextually misleading, in that there is little point in comparing a general purpose CPU against one designed to process media data; however the metric used was a standard one and the figures quoted were essentially correct for both platforms. The FLOPS figure quoted by Nvidia when they launched the GF256 was a non-standard metric that they had essentially made up. It was deliberately used to compare against PS2, and had the desired effect, which was that everyone quoted it and said OMFG it's 10* more powerfull than PS2. I don't like the fact that both Sony and MS are now using what look to me like made up metrics, but I don't see that Sony had any choice but to enter that game once MS had published their specs.

I also think it is fair to say that in the last gen MS misused specifications far more than their competitors. Whereas Sony quoted raw specs, they did at least provide some parameters on which to judge those specs. MS quoted top end raw specs, without any parameters, and then deliberately compared their specs against their competitors knowing they were not a like for like comparison. What on earth is the point comparing Game Cube's in game 12M polys/sec against Xbox's 125M polys/sec (especially when it was a raw transform figure for the GPU in isolation). By Xbox spec standards the PS2 was aprox 105M polys/sec.

There are important differences between: presenting real metrics in the most favourable light; using made up metrics (without standards of measurement); deliberately comparing disimilar metrics as though they were similar; deliberately comparing inconsequential numbers.

Get real man. Comparing 6.2 GFLOPS of EE to 3 GFLOPS of P3 isn't misleading??? :LOL:
 
PC-Engine said:
Again please site specific examples from the interview.... ;)

The leading questions happen most at the beginning at the interview but it gets better as the interviewer gets more comfortable... like most interviews do, the interviewers/interviewess lead each other...

The responders are pretty fair in that they state consistently that Sony just took a "different tack." They dont really sound biased - certainly not marketing types. They even state that the article was slightly biased to put their box in the best light, and that they dont know enough about RSX just what Sony released.

They also say they know ALOT about the Cell.. everything we have argued about here they state there.
 
Andy said:
PC-Engine said:
Get real man. Comparing 6.2 GFLOPS of EE to 3 GFLOPS of P3 isn't misleading??? :LOL:

Saying the Nvidia GPU in XBox did 80GFlops isn't either?

Sony versus Dreamcast started the Gigaflop/spec wars... Sony is the leader at EVERYTHING! LOL
 
PC-Engine said:
Look dude, I just finished listening to the interview too so you might want to edit your post before I rip it a new one. I'll be back in a few minutes. ;)
I look forward to your take on it then. Please explain to me (and I guess others here to) how the use of main RAM in PS3 is poor for general code and how XeCPU doesn't have to write data and read data from main memory. Please explain how the 1 teraflop system performance figure was extremely conservative. Please explain the '256 GB/s to Main RAM'.

I was on a crusade, to point out how stupid the misinformation going around is and how it's getting worse. In presenting the blog I've pointed out pretty much everything said, except a few boring things like eDRAM stores colour, depth and Z data. I pointed out things I don't understand, like SPE's being 'extremely slow' at DP maths and even explained that maybe in a different context they're right; I don't know how they justify that statement because they didn't qualify it. But the points I've raised, where I've actually quoted them verbatim, are exactly what they've said. Like 256 GB/s to main memory. I said that might just have been bad interview technique. I've given them the benefit of the doubt where I could. But there's a whole load of bunkum there that I'd really love for you to explain!
 
Here's something to chew on for a start. I'll transcribe more as I have more time.

If you compare the two GPUs, they mentioned 1.8TFLOPS. We came in at total system performance of around a TFLOP. I think you're really looking at their people summing performance numbers differently. We took a very conservative approach and I think they went a very nonconserative approach I guess is the best word I can use for it LOL. The reality is the two GPUs are very similar if you look at raw performance. If you start looking at usability of the GPUs I think ours is a nice design it certainly not the traditional pipline GPU deign, it's extremely multithreaded it has automatic balance of VS and PS so I think at the end and maybe this is my own bias I think our GPU is gonna actually be quite a bit more useful.

Q: You mention TFLOPS, is that a good useful measurement, people are throwing that term around petty liberally, is that something I should care about as a gamer?

A:TFLOPS really comes down to I think who's willing to really push the meaning of floating point calculation and who's willing to dig in and kind of lack of a better word fake the numbers and see who can get the best number. Again our TFLOP number was extremely conservative. I think they took our number and....doubled it. Unfortunely it is very difficul to analyse the power of these machines. They both have a huge amount of theoretical power and some of the challenges is going to be how easy it is for developers to use that power. If it takes them 3 or 4 years to fully expolit the machine then those launch titles and the first couple of year titles are not going to be that great.

I don't see anything misleading there.
 
Andy said:
PC-Engine said:
Get real man. Comparing 6.2 GFLOPS of EE to 3 GFLOPS of P3 isn't misleading??? :LOL:

Saying the Nvidia GPU in XBox did 80GFlops isn't either?

It doesn't matter if they used 80 GFLOPS or 40 GFLOPS. The fact is Xbox came out after PS2 and the fact it's more powerful when adding the TnL power of the GPU with the CPU. In other words the PS2 is weaker than the Xbox in total GFLOPS yet they continue to try and say it's more powerful just because the CPU alone has more GFLOPS than Xbox CPU.

The GCN had a total of IIRC 11 GFLOPS so the PS2 was the weekest of the bunch when talking about GFLOPS, but they kept on comparing CPU only GFLOPS to mislead people to believe it was more powerful. Xbox is more powerful so it doesn't matter what numbers were used.
 
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