BitBoys

I meant in their ~12 years BEFORE now. ;) We all know about the Acceleon. But it's been their track record up to now (and that even now what they have is not in the sector they were always hyping) that's given them the reputation they have.
 
cthellis42 said:
I meant in their ~12 years BEFORE now. ;) We all know about the Acceleon. But it's been their track record up to now (and that even now what they have is not in the sector they were always hyping) that's given them the reputation they have.

Microsoft licenced their envinronmental mapped bump mapping technology for directX 6. And it's now supported by "all" graphics chips being manufactured except GF4MX.
 
cthellis42 said:
I meant in their ~12 years BEFORE now. ;) We all know about the Acceleon. But it's been their track record up to now (and that even now what they have is not in the sector they were always hyping) that's given them the reputation they have.

you read my post where I quoted myself, you know damn well the answer. (or at least you should.)
 
You mentioned two PCB's for AXE, but no real tests, followed by ambitious upgrades, cancellations, possible deals that then fell through, until finally just now they've got something in the G10. I'm inquiring about an actual product that sold in any appreciable volume, or even just had enough to spread around to the reviewing community for preliminary testing leading up to launch.

Creating silicon, and creating reference boards is a common enough process--what is NOT so common is producing nothing that brings in a semblance of profit or visability for the first dozen-or-so years of existance, while still managing to build up lots of hype on a number of occasions.
 
cthellis, most of what they'd hyped over the years never even REACHED silicon.

The only products they've actually had silicon for are the fully functional Pyramid3D, which was a very long time ago and never actually hit the market... AXE (story already given in this thread)... and now Acceleon (their first ACTUAL RELEASE).
 
cthellis42 said:
You mentioned two PCB's for AXE, but no real tests, followed by ambitious upgrades, cancellations, possible deals that then fell through, until finally just now they've got something in the G10. I'm inquiring about an actual product that sold in any appreciable volume, or even just had enough to spread around to the reviewing community for preliminary testing leading up to launch.

Creating silicon, and creating reference boards is a common enough process--what is NOT so common is producing nothing that brings in a semblance of profit or visability for the first dozen-or-so years of existance, while still managing to build up lots of hype on a number of occasions.

oh dear god lord...
cthellis42: as we say in finland, take the eye on your hand and look!

I'll double quote myself with heavy bolding!
so, why they didn't license AXE stuff to other underdogs like Matrox? where are they now? what's the future?
I'll quote myself from another thread...

they are rather busy with next generation handheld / pda chips.

and no signs of coming back on desktop anywhere near by. project codenamed as 'Hammer' was their last effort and was put on ice ("...which means same as scrapping it in this business.") almost 2 years ago.

oh well, while I started this, I can reveal something new as well. acording to two different sources, Bitboys and Matrox were having negotiations about possibility licensing some BB tech around 1 year ago to get Parhelia II saved as R&D project, but it all died on M's management ideology that is known as NIH. I am not sure what was the level of the negotiations were done and I don't know exactly how serious try it was, but eventually it was last nail on two coffins... Matrox 'Pitou' and to get something out of an AXE.

without a doubt, Bitboys guys have still the same enthuastic attitude they have had since demo scene times, but right now they are funded with their products and they never made a cent out of PC stuff, so it will most likely need very big stack of cash and request / order outside the company to a new try PC market.


here's the stuff for now, hopefully you can make a fine flamewar out of it. ;)

Now, ask yourself, can you have your defined "real products" without making a nickle out of them??

it's 4:18am here and I am tired and I am not saying that you are stupid but this is getting a bit rediculous.
How clearly everything has to be said so that everyone understands? Hey, come on, I trust that everyone has at least that much brain to get this kind of stuff. But I guess I was wrong. shall I switch to s-p-e-l-l-i-n-g for just in case, eh?

I definately need some sleep.
 
Correct. Now is the G10 a "PC stuff"? No. They may actually have had similar chipware early on for all I know, or small-scale products that brought in something while their overhyped PC thrusts overshadowed them and formed their reputation regardless--it's not like I've been keeping track. (Hence why I was asking someone that does.)

Meanwhile, you were jumping on my statements in very contradictory fashion, which in the end all seemed to have been in line, ne?

Also:
Now, ask yourself, can you have your defined "real products" without making a nickle out of them??
Yes, it is ENTIRELY possible to make products and lose money on them overall. Even THAT has more value, as at least there is something physical going out the door, whether or not it turns out to be successful.
 
so, why they don't license AXE tech to other underdogs like S3 or XGI?
Why didn't ATI or NV buy their tech? I'm sure they would have been interested in it too ?
Surely they didn't give up after Matrox let them down ?
 
okay, let's put it so that even chellis42 should understand it...

cthellis42 said:
Yeah, but isn't that--like--their first piece of functional, purchasable silicon since their founding, despite going through many phases of enormous hype about completely different-natured projects over the years? :p

YES (though, it can be argued if Pyramid3D was / is a one...)



cthellis42 said:
Yeah, but um... Were they in any products? That sold? With any kind of volume?

NO

cthellis42 said:
People have Voodoo5 6000's as well, but that hardly qualifies. Heck, the 5800 almost doesn't! :p

I certainly imagine they produced some silicon, but did they ever bring about product? Was there performance measuring of the chips in a whole device, rather than guesswork from paper stats or testing chips and extrapolating, without really touching the software later? (We all have seen how well THOSE work.)

NO (why make a product if you can't sell it, because lack of god damn manufacturing line?)

cthellis42 said:
I meant in their ~12 years BEFORE now. ;) We all know about the Acceleon. But it's been their track record up to now (and that even now what they have is not in the sector they were always hyping) that's given them the reputation they have.

NO (for reasons that have been gone thru several times here. you know god damn well those, so why start to making it such a huge point in this thread? Is it just that Failures are funnier than succeeding? I just don't get why to make such a huge point from stuff that is gone thru at least dozen times.)

so, Once more:

PYRAMID 3D, Glaze3D and AXE never materialized as product. they were never tested, or seen as an actual silicon except few ocasions. reasons were bankcrupt of chip fab (pyramid3D), design problems (Glaze3D) and chip fab line up shut down (AXE).

Happy now?
Let me hear what part you didn't understand this time? if this all was obious, why you asked it in a first place? or did you just want see if everyone here likes thinking that boys are "wankers blowing up some money from the investors and they should be shot!" ? (quote from one of many 3D dedicated web forums few years back.)

if you haven't noticed, it is not always up to you if things go right or wrong. as you can read between the lines, Glaze3D failure was mostly their own fault, because too optimistic design times and additional in-house developed synthetic tools. (which again made AXE possible.) in case of Pyramid3D, way too much things were something else than was originally thought / planned and that's the reason it ended up on small finnish firm licenseable list. (it is still there... VLSI is the company name and the product name is VS25205.) and was not ever ported to any other line.
 
vnet said:
so, why they don't license AXE tech to other underdogs like S3 or XGI?
Why didn't ATI or NV buy their tech? I'm sure they would have been interested in it too ?
Surely they didn't give up after Matrox let them down ?

most of stuff is still licenseable, but 90% of companies have NIH additude.
 
Putz much, Nappe? :rolleyes:

Bitboys has a reputation--rather DNF-like in nature--hence the tongue-in-cheekness of my initial comments. The rest of mine were for clarification, since I really didn't follow them at all and their COULD certainly be things I don't know. Your exhuberant jumping-on of comments certainly came across as much more "contradictory" than explanatory, and one-line throwaway comments do NOT define a hardware company for a decade+. So instead of acting like an injured ass, how about you conduct a conversation in a manner that befits a conversation?
 
Nappe1 said:
vnet said:
What is NIH ???? :?:

I'm sure some of the underdogs would be interested (besides Matrox)

Not Invented Here.

Wasn't Matrox the one who licensed in the past PVR's PCX2 technology?
I'm surprised they couldn't bare to license technology this time to save themselves
 
vnet said:
Nappe1 said:
vnet said:
What is NIH ???? :?:

I'm sure some of the underdogs would be interested (besides Matrox)

Not Invented Here.

Wasn't Matrox the one who licensed in the past PVR's PCX2 technology?
I'm surprised they couldn't bare to license technology this time to save themselves

well, they did buy the whole chip. but as far as I know, they made the deal because NEC wanted to. they were in danger to lose G-series chip manufacturer if they would have rejected the deal.

so, they didn't do it because they really wanted to, but more like they had to.
 
Could even be that the overall failure that was the M3D caused them to start thinking in NIH terms.

But, I don't think that NIH alone was what caused Matrox to abandon Pitou and whatever Bitboys talks they had. They already took their last shot in this market and missed, Pitou wouldn't have made sense in their current plans (besides what does Matrox care about wasting R&D $$$ anyway?).
 
As a minor sidenote on licensing in general: entering the graphics market as it is today isn't by far easy. Large companies f.e. semiconductors are aware of the time/resources/efforts and filed red numbers for a specific period of time it takes to enter the graphics market.

As things are today I have severe doubts that for a newcomer reaching a break-even-point can be done in less than let's say 2 years. Even then success isn't guaranteed which increases the total risk involved and would make large companies think more than just twice to dip a toe in the water especially if Orca killer wales like ATI/NV are lurking in the deep (errr...how's that as a metaphore hm? :) ).

In the case of Matrox, it hardly makes any difference whether they develop their own technology or license it after all. The above risk is the same.

It gets even more critical to convince any kind of potential licensee in cases like Bitboys OY (outside of those that already had been under negotiations) IMHO, when there has been no hardware released. Opportunities are there will start to get a lot better for them, while entering the PDA/mobile market. Granted it's a totally different market with entirely different rules and measures, yet it does favour IP licensing business schemes. If they manage to file a success there, they might start thinking in the future of expanding to other markets too.

Former Videologic today Imagination Technologies are already showing versatility in IP/SoC sollutions supplied and that for more than just a handful of markets. In fact the acquisition of Ensigma and the separation of Metagence as a subdivision of it's own seem to help things even more and PureDigital seems to start gaining quite a lot in brand value when it comes to DABs for instance. In the past they used to work on let's say one design and I think that right now about 18 designs are under development.

Anyway what the PC graphics standalone market concerns I have severe doubts that it will be that easy to see a real 3rd contender there any time soon. Cutting off a few sales persentages here and there or making one minor success once in a blue moon doesn't mean much to me. Bitboys though has a fine chance to build on the back of the Acceleon, whether that would be future PDA/mobile sollutions development, or expanding to other markets where IP is equally important.

As far as all the small players goes, what I absolutely cannot stand is the constant mega-hype I can see in more than one occassions. Deliver on time, reach your initially set targets and if then your business prospects start to grow you can eventually adopt bold PR crap. If you're selling only IP then the real hype should come actually from the licensee and NOT from the IP provider.

More simply put: Put Up or Shut Up (and that's by far not only refering to just the release; let's see if it really can stick up to the competition first).

Did I mention that all the above is all IMHO? ;)
 
Ailuros said:
besides what does Matrox care about wasting R&D $$$ anyway?

Their not so favourable financial situation I'd say.
Actually, if there's one thing the people managing Matrox know how to do it's fatten their wallets [at the expense of their (former) employees and customers] , in spite of wasting so much $$$ on R'ing&D'ing projects that never saw the light of day. The Matrox niches are solely dominated by Matrox (much like Apple) so they can charge whatever they want since they really have no competition there.
 
Must be the reason why it took them soooo long to get Parhelia out the door and I'm probably the only one that thinks that the whole design philosophy looked way too old and tired upon release.

I'm not even going to mention the screamingly high amount of resources they used for it, especially when it comes to the number of engineers assigned for that project. [/sarcasm mode off]

Pardon me if I think that they might have done a lot better if they had licensed from Bitboys. IMO a very competitive mainstream card as a start would have been good enough.

As far as the domination in specific markets goes I've no idea how it looks like on the other side of the Atlantic, at least in Europe I don't see them having any kind of domination. Pardon me but aren't we actually talking about the 3D graphics market overall?
 
Back
Top