Betrayed by Europe

[Legion]

well you better tell that to Muslim's who run this site. also you might want to try and pass your insight on to the Jewish people here, although i'd imagne they are in a better possition to know than you are.

It is definately clear you have dismissed the vilification of Jews in muslim propaganda by providing sites by jews promotting palestinian movments

I am sure Hamas will be glad to know you consider them for their objective views completely devoid of bigotry...despite their media portrayal.

If i found a jewish denier of the holocaust would you second guess the holocaust as well? :?

 

[kyleb]

The 'New Anti-Semitism'

...Spokesman for Britain's two million-strong Muslim community are virulent in their attacks on the Jewish state and on its supporters.

sure enough, Semites who are anti-Zionist are geting misslabled again.

 

[Legion]

The 'New Anti-Semitism'

...Spokesman for Britain's two million-strong Muslim community are virulent in their attacks on the Jewish state and on its supporters.

sure enough, semites who are anti-Zionist are geting misslabled again.

Of course because zionism is the new nazism and all jews who support a free state where the jewish people can reside in the middle east are Zionist Nazis. Some one is definately being mislabeled and stereotyped...

It appears to me your are rather missing the bigger picture concerning your own webpages Kyleb. I thought i might give you a little hint to start: The webpages profess the beliefs of Orthodox jews. WIth this little tidbit of information perhaps you cand find out on your own why they would vehemetly oppose zionism.

 

[kyleb]

It is definately clear you have dismissed the vilification of Jews in muslim propaganda by providing sites by jews promotting palestinian movments

i was just pointing out that it is not nearly all-inclusive as your pervious post made it sound.

I am sure Hamas will be glad to know you consider them for their objective views completely devoid of bigotry...despite their media portrayal.

Hamas has serious problems with their idiology, you won't get any argument from me there. but you won't get me to vilify all Muslems based on that either.

If i found a jewish denier of the holocaust would you second guess the holocaust as well? :?

That's a hypothetical question. They can expect me not to answer hypothetical questions. - George W. Bush

seriously though to that last question, i don't base my beleifs on such weak things as one persons opinion. you would have to find about 6 milion Jewish deniers before you got me to sway my opinion on that subject.

 

[Legion]

i was just pointing out that it is not nearly all-inclusive as your pervious post made it sound.

How did my previous post suggest anything was "all-inclusive"? Can you show me where i included all objectors into the same category? Did I not imply in this post that there was such as thing as valid disagreement with Israeli politics:

I do not see this occuring at all. I am willing to wager the vast majority of people can decern between a valid disagreement with israeli politics and one's meant only as a guise for racism. I believe one major concern wrt to this issue is that the media isn't fairly representing Israel's position or for that matter incidents occuring within Israel. Considering what i have read I am lead to believe this is quite possibly so as i have seen such news agencies as Rueters propagating misinformation about events in Israel.

Hamas has serious problems with their idiology, you won't get any argument from me there.

But i do appear to be getting an argument from you. My previous post your aforementioned refered to "muslim proganda." I did not say all of what muslims believe is propaganda.

That's a hypothetical question. They can expect me not to answer hypothetical questions. - George W. Bush

And this is an attempt to avoid answering the question

What is your definition of "is" - Bill Clinton.

seriously though to that last question, i don't base my beleifs on such weak things as one persons opinion.

But you list websites you seem to feel are relevant to the matter of qualifying the zionism as dangerous? Double standard?

you would have to find about 6 milion Jewish deniers before you got me to sway my opinion on that subject.

Right, but you find a webpage comprised of an unknown number of contributors and suddenly you feel they are qualified to define the nature of Zionism...


-btw i suggest you read the book "The Chosen" to provide you with an excellent perception of why orthodox Jews opposed Zionism.

 

[Barnabas]

Could some who lives in Europe answer the following question. Is the growing muslim population at the center of the growing anti-semitic sentiment in Europe. Is there even a growing anti-semitic sentiment?

I'm not sure about a growing anti-semitic sentiment. What is growing is the public display of anti-semitism. The muslims are among those who oppenly attack (at least verbally) the jews but they're not a the heart of it. Anti-Semitism is a centuries old 'tradition' here in europe, passed from one generation to the next.

 

[kyleb]

Of course because zionism is the new nazism and all jews who support a free state where the jewish people can reside in the middle east are Zionist Nazis. Some one is definately being mislabeled and stereotyped...

ya you are, by putting words in my mouth that i never spoke.

It appears to me your are rather missing the bigger picture concerning your own webpages Kyleb. I thought i might give you a little hint to start: The webpages profess the beliefs of Orthodox jews. WIth this little tidbit of information perhaps you cand find out on your own why they would vehemetly oppose zionism.

well i know why they oppose it, but what is this bigger picture you eulude to?

 

[Legion]

Could some who lives in Europe answer the following question. Is the growing muslim population at the center of the growing anti-semitic sentiment in Europe. Is there even a growing anti-semitic sentiment?

I'm not sure about a growing anti-semitic sentiment. What is growing is the public display of anti-semitism. The muslims are among those who oppenly attack (at least verbally) the jews but they're not a the heart of it. Anti-Semitism is a centuries old 'tradition' here in europe, passed from one generation to the next.

This is what confuses me! I hear unyielding denials of anti-jewish sentiment in Europe from certain Europeans and then am completely opposite view from other Europeans. I read about increased numbers of Synagogue fire bombings yet people deny there is a rise in sentiment. Is this nothing more than a semantical game?

 

[Legion]

ya you are, by putting words in my mouth that i never spoke.

Bah! Read your own webpages!

well i know why they oppose it, but what is this bigger picture you eulude to?

There is a huge religious significance here you are missing. In a simplistic view it has to do with reclaiming the holy land, in the views of the orthodox, before God has ordained such to happen.

 

[Humus]

Could some who lives in Europe answer the following question. Is the growing muslim population at the center of the growing anti-semitic sentiment in Europe. Is there even a growing anti-semitic sentiment?

Only speaking of Sweden here, but numbers for the last year showed that there was a slight increase in the amount of crimes related to racism and attacks on minorities. The only subclass that didn't increase was interestingly enough anti-semitism, which went down slightly.

Anyway, I'm confident that anti-semitism is growing a little, but in my country at least it's not something you see or hear about, mostly because jews are few, while other groups such as arabs are more common and receive more hate. The anti-semitism that exists is mostly among people from the middle-east and among the extreme left.

 

[Barnabas]

This is what confuses me! I hear unyielding denials of anti-jewish sentiment in Europe from certain Europeans and then am completely opposite view from other Europeans. I read about increased numbers of Synagogue fire bombings yet people deny there is a rise in sentiment. Is this nothing more than a semantical game?

The difference between a nation with widespread hidden anti-semitism and a nation with a minority of more radical anti-semites and an indifferent population is far from being just a semantical game. The former looks on the outside like a modern society but may well be a catastrophy waiting to happen while the latter looks like a rogue state although the problem could be contained rather easily.
Besides, there is of course no common european position on this topic. Everyone has it's own views on the matter. I think you are confusing the political presentation of the EU as a union with a common citizens views (official: Germany and France are friends; average french citizen: to hell with the boches and the rotten euro they forced on us; average german citizen: French? Jerks!)

 

[kyleb]

How did my previous post suggest anything was "all-inclusive"?

that was the impression i got so i agrued otherwise, i am sorry that i offended you with that.

But you list websites you seem to feel are relevant to the matter of qualifying the zionism as dangerous? Double standard?

it would be if all i knew about the subject was those from those websites, but that is not the case.

Right, but you find a webpage comprised of an unknown number of contributors and suddenly you feel they are qualified to define the nature of Zionism...

i was simply pointing out examples, would you like more?

-btw i suggest you read the book "The Chosen" to provide you with an excellent perception of why orthodox Jews opposed Zionism.

don't you think the Tanak would be a better reference?

Bah! Read your own webpages!

i linked to the page to show Muslims do not see see Jewish and Zionist as inseperable idiologies, nothing more.

there is a huge religious significance here you are missing.

spit it out then?

In a simplistic view it has to do with reclaiming the holy land, in the views of the orthodox, before God has ordained such to happen.

that is just one argument though.

 

[horvendile]

Could some who lives in Europe answer the following question. Is the growing muslim population at the center of the growing anti-semitic sentiment in Europe. Is there even a growing anti-semitic sentiment?

Only speaking of Sweden here, but numbers for the last year showed that there was a slight increase in the amount of crimes related to racism and attacks on minorities. The only subclass that didn't increase was interestingly enough anti-semitism, which went down slightly.

This is spooky. I was just about to post an answer to that question with almost exactly that wording.

There is indeed data that indicates that (often young) muslims are the most active antisemites in (parts of?) Europe. On the other hand the survey apparently was so small that it would be precarious to say anything definitive.

Furthermore, I suspect that the extent of antisemitism in Europe is overestimated. I have no data to back this up, so obviously it's possible that I'm lucky living in a calm area. But I have never, ever, in my whole life seen any of the antisemite activities you by reading this forum get the impression are rampant all over Europe.
Of course I do not deny that things happen, and I do not try to excuse those things. But I think that it's a mistake to believe that antisemitism is a widespread and accepted phenomenon.

 

[Legion]

well most of the alledged incidents seemed to occur in France and England (indicated in my link). Have you heard of such behaviors as synagogue bombings from others who may have come from said countries?

 

[Sabastian]

wouldn't anti-Zionist be more to the point?

Ironically Zionism is little more then Jewish nationalism today. The whole idea that this critique of Israel is all about government policy and nothing to do with Jewish people is actually bunk. Consider things like the fence ,which Jews overwhelmingly support because they are sick of being suicide bombed and terrorized. Consider attacks by the state of Israel on Palestinian terrorist organizations that plan to murder Jews, which Jews support. Why terrorist organizations are being portrayed as freedom fighters? Christ to deny Jewish people the right for their government to actively defend their lives and pursue a policy of aggression against these groups is very anti-Jewish. To support the terrorist agenda is very anti-Jewish. To condemn the Israeli government for defending its people is anti-Semite. Bah, "those people" deserve what they get.

The rise of anti-Semitism in France and Europe is not a figment of "those people"'s imagination.

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?q=French+antiSemitism+&scope=news&tab=news

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/g...Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/01/21&ID=Ar00900

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/29/wsemit29.xml&

http://www.axt.org.uk/HateMusic/HateMusic.htm

http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0311/article/031111a.html

http://www.boycottfrance.com/history_french_anti_semitism.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3507945.stm

 

[Legion]

Sabastian do you mind futher explaining your post.

Ironically Zionism is little more then Jewish nationalism today. The whole idea that this critique of Israel is all about government policy and nothing to do with Jewish people is actually bunk. Consider things like the fence ,which Jews overwhelmingly support because they are sick of being suicide bombed and terrorized. Consider attacks by the state of Israel on Palestinian terrorist organizations that plan to murder Jews, which Jews support.

Today Zionism, from my perspective has become a term in which to demonize Jewish nationalism and israeli patriotism. However, the matter of zionism to the orthodox jews hasn't changed much. It defies their beliefs and they oppose it on the basis of it being contray to God's will.

As for all the matters being bunk, i can not say. I am not gifted with the capacity to review all the arguments on both sides. However, i can see how propaganda is being propagated to the palestinian youth and i find it most disturbing.


-btw do any of you know why those people's faces are blurred in the pictures?

 

[L233]

Here is an article written by news agency centered in Israel concerning matter relevant to the topic of this thread.

Ok, let's see:

"A new wave of anti-Semitism is sweeping Europe. [...] The left-liberal media are scathing in their criticism of Israel."

Jesus.

 

[Legion]

Here is an article written by news agency centered in Israel concerning matter relevant to the topic of this thread.

Ok, let's see:

"A new wave of anti-Semitism is sweeping Europe. [...] The left-liberal media are scathing in their criticism of Israel."

Jesus.

Funny, i just don't see this as a substantitive rebuttle to their allegations. For some one so quick to spout invectives concerning the paranoia of the "right" you sure are sensitive to criticism of the "left".

 

[pascal]

if you actually go around and ask people about why they really hate America or Americans they won't react irrationally and calmly explain that it is all in good humor

What makes you think that the French hate America or the Americans?

Disagreement = hatred?

Good point L233,

Also the author try to mix two different things, the american situation and the jewish situation.

Also any disagrement with Israel is automatically disagrement with all jews and automatically again anti-semitc.

There is lot of blablabla

 

[kyleb]

well Legion, i know you didn't take me up on my offer for more examples of Jewish people who have shown opposition to Zionism but there is one quote in particular, from a man i have great respect for, that i feel compelled to share here:

Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resist the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism with in our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.

-Albert Einstein