Best 4K HDR TV's for One X, PS4 Pro [2017-2020]

[Pressure]

What's the price for the 65" models, since that was the recent TV sets I helped buy for my coworkers and sister? The premium LED US set TCL 65R625 for $730 delivered. Are those 65" LG B9 or C9 under $1460?

Currently the C9 65" is $1500 in Denmark sans VAT. The B9 65" is $1,285 sans VAT.

The B9 55" is only $750 sans VAT right now ...

 

[turkey]

I just watched an interesting video on LG's new OLEDs. They are not quoting input lag as apparently it's now so low measurement errors make any difference between set. It's basically under 5ms.

For the next gen consoles they will support 120hz at 4k so should benefit from this. It sounds like a great leap for gaming, the actual game lag will be there but for many this could be a meaningful reduction of a frame or more.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

New I just watched an interesting video on LG's new OLEDs. They are not quoting input lag as apparently it's now so low measurement errors make any difference between set. It's basically under 5ms.

IIRC Linus measured ~12ms on the 2019 models when they used a 1440p 120Hz source (there are no 4K 120Hz HDMI sources available yet, for testing..).

 

[orangpelupa]

My TV bites the dust!

So now I'm scouring this thread, in case I need to buy a TV.

will try to take it to a TV service shack tomorrow
https://maps.app.goo.gl/quuZS6NKi1uE5wPN9

 

[orangpelupa]

Even my wife sees the difference in an instance and she doesn't care about these sort of things at all.

If most consumers wouldn't see the difference then why are all manufacturers making OLED TV's? Or why would people be buying anything other than a budget tv if they can see the difference anyway?

Obviously they can and as with everything there are people who want a good product and not just something that is "good enough".

Anyway the point isn't whether OLED can be as cheap as the cheapest LCD, but whether it can be cheap enough. OLED is now going towards 1000$ so I'd say it is now cheap enough to be interesting for a large amount of consumers.

IIRC, anecdote, a few years ago when I bough my TV, the customer care mode with the brand than the TV quality. They also believe marketing speaks (Samsung naming their product QLED is a pure marketing genius)

 

[wco81]

Samsung is trying to try to develop a manufacturing process for QLED OLED. The first ones aren't expected to do much. Supposedly they demo'd it at CES and they set up a 4 year old LG OLED for comparison, because the brightness output was much lower back then.

 

[MistaPi]

I just ordered a 65" LG C9 for 20000 NOK, about 2244 USD. Can't wait. I will be using the XBO-X for streaming services until the eARC update, so no VRR or ALLM until then. ALLM is not really a issue because I use two HDMI output on my AVR and activities on my Logitech Harmony remote to quickly change picture mode. Anywho, I will be ready for the next-gen consoles.

 

[Jupiter]

I just watched an interesting video on LG's new OLEDs. They are not quoting input lag as apparently it's now so low measurement errors make any difference between set. It's basically under 5ms.

For the next gen consoles they will support 120hz at 4k so should benefit from this. It sounds like a great leap for gaming, the actual game lag will be there but for many this could be a meaningful reduction of a frame or more.

Last years LG OLEDs already support UHD/120 Hz with HDMI 2.1 but the new series will do it for HDMI 2.0 as well. What I find strange is that Sony and Panasonic will still be using HDMI 2.0 in 2020 while LG has been using HDMI 2.1 since 2019.

The input lag of 5 ms could only be reduced with an even higher frequency. Technically speaking the OLED TVs already have an extremely short switching time and there is no 240Hz LCD Panel which can hold up.

With LCDs even 240 Hz electronics dont have much use if the panel itself cannot actually switch so fast. That's why the 200Hz LCDs were not really that better than the 100Hz LCDs. Even the 100Hz OLEDs have the same motion sharpness as 200 Hz LCDs and the OLEDs don't know smearing. So far the advantage of much faster switching times has not really been used on OLEDs and simple sample-and-hold has been ironed over with 120 Hz picture electronics of the LCD displays.

The new 2020 120 Hz BFI mode with its content-based dark phase control is the first attempt to profit from the faster switching times of OLEDs. In addition the BFI mode is not comparable to the backlight flashing of LCDs. With OLEDs it can be inserted into the picture structure as a rolling scan and comes closer to the line-by-line picture structure of the CRTs than the BFI mode on LCDs. Therefore the new BFI mode is the biggest improvement for me.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The input lag of 5 ms could only be reduced with an even higher frequency. Technically speaking the OLED TVs already have an extremely short switching time and there is no 240Hz LCD Panel which can hold up.

Latency doesn't necessarily correlate to refresh rate.

 

[Jupiter]

He explains it. You cant get faster than a 240th of a second with a 120 Hz screen.

What I want to say is that LCDs can never be as fast as OLEDs. LCD crystals are too slow and that's also the reasan that they smear. Even 240 Hz do not make a big difference. The new OLED will be by far the the best gaming monitor available.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

He explains it. You cant get faster than a 240th of a second with a 120 Hz screen.

Refresh rate and latency (lag) are different things. You can have a 240Hz panel and the processing pipeline may be 20ms. Another TV may with the same panel may have a processing pipeline of 7ms. TVs are still primarily engineered to replay non-interactive content. Reducing latency, without compromising quality, can be complex - especially if any scaling is required as it's all usually undertaken by one video processor.

 

[Jupiter]

How will you measure the input lag below 4 ms. The data we all have was measured off the screen. There will be no lower than a 240th of a second for 120 Hz panels. If the image does not come faster it cannot have less lag.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

How will you measure the input lag below 4 ms. The data we all have was measured off the screen. There will be no lower than a 240th of a second for 120 Hz panels. If the image does not come faster it cannot have less lag.

I don't think you've followed/understood any of my posts. Never mind.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I don't think you've followed/understood any of my posts. Never mind.

Seems to me like you were the one who didn't understand... He is saying that refresh rate of the display puts the boundary on how low the latency can be and with a 240Hz TV the minimun input latency can be 4.1ms or around there. That is the theoretical minimum latency when the processing pipeline is zero milliseconds. You still have to wait for the next frame to see the action from the input and it takes 4.1ms for the next frame to pop up.

 

[Jupiter]

Seems to me like you were the one who didn't understand... He is saying that refresh rate of the display puts the boundary on how low the latency can be and with a 240Hz TV the minimun input latency can be 4.1ms or around there. That is the theoretical minimum latency when the processing pipeline is zero milliseconds. You still have to wait for the next frame to see the action from the input and it takes 4.1ms for the next frame to pop up.

Exactly. Normally you measure from the middle of the screen where you get half the time. At 120 Hz it takes 8.3 ms until the picture goes through once from the top to the bottom and in the middle of the picture it would be an input-lag value of 4.16 ms.

That television sets usually have a higher input lag value is clear. Otherwise you would not get a 140 ms input lag on some TVs. However, at ~4 ms the 120 Hz number becomes the limiting factor. At least for OLEDs since with LCDs the slow crystals are also a hindrance.

About BFI in 2020

With its 2020 OLED TVs, Sony will introduce X-Motion Clarity, which is made possible by LG Display's upgrade to a functional BFI system (Black Frame Insertion). The system will continuously "scan" the OLED display, meaning that a dark bar will roll (at 120Hz) from the top to the bottom - rather than using fullscreen black frames. The intended purpose here is to cancel the human eye's inherent memory effect that is a primary source for the perception of motion blur on LCD and OLED TVs (with sample-and-hold driving). By using these scanning effects to constantly "reset the eye", moving images will appear sharper. The scanning effect of the new BFI implementation is also faster than most eyes can perceive so we avoid negative effects such as flickering or reduction in brightness.

FlatpanelsHD broke the news about the 120Hz BFI system in OLED TVs in early 2019 and it was intended to be included in the 2019 models but was pulled in the eleventh hour. It will now make its debut in 2020 OLED TVs and we look forward to testing it as soon as we get our hands on review samples.

https://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1579257548

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Seems to me like you were the one who didn't understand... He is saying that refresh rate of the display puts the boundary on how low the latency can be and with a 240Hz TV the minimun input latency can be 4.1ms or around there. That is the theoretical minimum latency when the processing pipeline is zero milliseconds. You still have to wait for the next frame to see the action from the input and it takes 4.1ms for the next frame to pop up.

Yes, I understand. What I'm saying is that the total processing pipeline can be longer than the time between frames. The processor is still working on unto 240 frames every second on a 240Hz display but the pipeline itself, which can comprise many stages, can itself be longer. I.e the first frame you feed into the processor comes out 20ms later, followed by the next frame you fed in almost 20ms ago - because the processes is doing multiple-passes sequentially. E.g.

Video rendering stage 1 - 4ms.
Video rendering stage 2 - 4ms.
Video rendering stage 3 - 4ms.
Video rendering stage 4 - 4ms.
Video rendering stage 5 - 4ms

The 'game mode' on most TV's generally disables most stages of the video processor.

 

[orangpelupa]

arghaghshgshas!!

SO my LG TV was broken (only 3 yrs old and rarely used), then after i got it serviced for 40 USD, its working again but half of the screen have broken color (red become orange-ish, etc). Ouch.

Hunting TVs on Rtings, and TCL seems to be the best budget.
But TCL didn't release any TV with local dimming for indonesia market. Blergh. The cheapest TV with local dimming is panasonic 55" GX800 at around 1000 USD, with only 100-200 USD more i already can get LG C8 OLED

In the end i got TCL 55A8 (aka TCL 55P8M in other APAC region) for around 370 USD. A TV i'm pretty sure i'll be disapointed with hahaha

 

[upnorthsox]

arghaghshgshas!!

SO my LG TV was broken (only 3 yrs old and rarely used), then after i got it serviced shafted for 40 USD, its working again but half of the screen have broken color (red become orange-ish, etc). Ouch.

Hunting TVs on Rtings, and TCL seems to be the best budget.
But TCL didn't release any TV with local dimming for indonesia market. Blergh. The cheapest TV with local dimming is panasonic 55" GX800 at around 1000 USD, with only 100-200 USD more i already can get LG C8 OLED

In the end i got TCL 55A8 (aka TCL 55P8M in other APAC region) for around 370 USD. A TV i'm pretty sure i'll be disapointed with hahaha

Fixed!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Last years LG OLEDs already support UHD/120 Hz with HDMI 2.1 but the new series will do it for HDMI 2.0 as well. What I find strange is that Sony and Panasonic will still be using HDMI 2.0 in 2020 while LG has been using HDMI 2.1 since 2019.

The input lag of 5 ms could only be reduced with an even higher frequency. Technically speaking the OLED TVs already have an extremely short switching time and there is no 240Hz LCD Panel which can hold up.

With LCDs even 240 Hz electronics dont have much use if the panel itself cannot actually switch so fast. That's why the 200Hz LCDs were not really that better than the 100Hz LCDs. Even the 100Hz OLEDs have the same motion sharpness as 200 Hz LCDs and the OLEDs don't know smearing. So far the advantage of much faster switching times has not really been used on OLEDs and simple sample-and-hold has been ironed over with 120 Hz picture electronics of the LCD displays.

The new 2020 120 Hz BFI mode with its content-based dark phase control is the first attempt to profit from the faster switching times of OLEDs. In addition the BFI mode is not comparable to the backlight flashing of LCDs. With OLEDs it can be inserted into the picture structure as a rolling scan and comes closer to the line-by-line picture structure of the CRTs than the BFI mode on LCDs. Therefore the new BFI mode is the biggest improvement for me.

That's a great video. They do a better job showing the artifacts of modern day flat panels compared to CRTs than I could explain. While modern LCD panels are better, it's still very much subpar when compared to CRTs. Unfortunately, while OLED greatly improves things (as did Plasma before it), it still doesn't quite bring it to the level of CRTs.

Combine that with 30 Hz rendering (as you can see in some of Blur Buster's tests) and you can have all the detail in the world in a game, but once it starts moving, you lose SOOOOO much graphical fidelity such that it looks much lower resolution. Something that you just don't get with CRTs. Although lower FPS still affects graphics detail when in motion on a CRT.

Will be interesting to see how LG's rolling BFI affects this. Standard BFI is just horrible for someone like me (screen just looks like it's constantly flickering). So, perhaps rolling black "scanlines" or bars will make BFI useful rather than headache inducing.

Regards,
SB

 

[orangpelupa]

That's a great video. They do a better job showing the artifacts of modern day flat panels compared to CRTs than I could explain. While modern LCD panels are better, it's still very much subpar when compared to CRTs. Unfortunately, while OLED greatly improves things (as did Plasma before it), it still doesn't quite bring it to the level of CRTs.

Combine that with 30 Hz rendering (as you can see in some of Blur Buster's tests) and you can have all the detail in the world in a game, but once it starts moving, you lose SOOOOO much graphical fidelity such that it looks much lower resolution. Something that you just don't get with CRTs. Although lower FPS still affects graphics detail when in motion on a CRT.

Will be interesting to see how LG's rolling BFI affects this. Standard BFI is just horrible for someone like me (screen just looks like it's constantly flickering). So, perhaps rolling black "scanlines" or bars will make BFI useful rather than headache inducing.

Regards,
SB

O_O i though OLED's BFI wont looks like its flickering. I only ever activated BFI on my 120Hz samsung LCD TV from many years ago and i cant stand the flicker at all. Hopefully rolling BFI wont have flicker or any weird happenings.