Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[upnorthsox]

You can measure things in different ways. Is the difference between 10 dBa and 20 dBa a lot, or a little? 20 dBa is twice as much, so numerically it's a lot. When perceived in a quiet room, 20 dBa is more audible. Against the backdrop of normal everyday noise, both are silent.

A difference of 50% between 2 minutes loading and 3 minutes loading is a lot. A difference of 50% between 1 second loading and 1.5 seconds loading isn't (how many people here are arguing 50% is a lot for GPUs but not a lot for short load times? )

If what's on screen can't be perceived as much different, 30% difference in graphics isn't a lot for those who perceive it.

As ever, people get hung up on numbers. Numbers don't intrinsically mean much - they're just one way to talk about the world.

Aah, the bargaining stage....

 

[Xbat]

Even if you argue a $500 PS5 is the normal price, that won't get a faster adoption than previous which is what Sony are aiming for. What's going to make more people want a PS5 than they did a PS2 or a PS4?

I think maybe what will help the transition is if games like the last of us part 2 and co all run at 60fps 4k out the box on PS5 and if they do I can see Sony making a big deal about it.

 

[AlphaWolf]

No the bargaining stage is when the consoles have been released, a difference confirmed and people flock to DF because they can't see the difference for themselves.

 

[upnorthsox]

This is little late to the party, but I'm pretty sure the language choices were based on the fact that AMD doesn't tell anyone anything about their partners chips which the partner hasn't said before. Thus, she says "partners have said they are using ray tracing" because that's what they've said, they haven't released the chip (specs) so Su can't comment in more detail no matter what she knows.

Yes good point, I considered that too and it may very well be correct but they haven't used the same couching for RDNA and 7nm. In fact it's been the opposite. As to Sony's RT plans, it's also possible that if they've altered their GPU/APU plans they may have also altered their plans to go with a discreet RT solution. I'm not trying to hedge bets or anything, just pointing out that a change to say a bigger gpu may include a compromise to their existing RT plans. That though would be a bitter pill for some I'm sure.

 

[upnorthsox]

No the bargaining stage is when the consoles have been released, a difference confirmed and people flock to DF because they can't see the difference for themselves.

No, going to DF is fully in the Depression stage.

 

[dobwal]

Exactly. And not only that, but how many chips per wafer would Sony be able to get from 400+mm2 chip? If yields are worse on top of that, they can find themselves in situation where they get ~40% less usable chips then with 320mm2 die.

That in turn results in considerably higher price of chip as well as smaller stock, because 7nm wafers are in BIG demand. I don't think current allocation for AMD is enough for MS and Sony, let alone if Sony went for 400+mm2 die. MS can do it because console will be more expensive and it will have 50% smaller chip targeting low end. Sony will have to aim for the middle ground or lose.

Apple is moving to 5nm to it opens up a big hole at 7nm. AMD is due to be the largest client at the 7nm node for TSMC.

On top of that AMD’s console chips will probably have long production runs which should give AMD priority over other clients.

 

[Jay]

Thought we had some breaking news when saw huge jump in page count.
This is the baseless thread not endless discussion on people thread. FFS

Can't it be spun off or people start a separate thread to discuss their favorite topic of having a go at people, then odd person defending them.

We don't need people to be verified here, so we just talk about the merits or lack of, of what was said. Unless it's bat shit crazy like mixmedia.
What the hell is going on here?

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Just gonne leave this little nugget from Jason here (generally thought to be best journalist in gaming).

Making assumptions based on limited informations...

Everything will just be 2x more powerful...

Both will be close...

Sure sounds sounds specific.

 

[Esrever]

Just gonne leave this little nugget from Jason here (generally thought to be best journalist in gaming).

Making assumptions based on limited informations...

Everything will just be 2x more powerful...

Both will be close...

Sure sounds sounds specific.

The most important part is "I don't know for sure what next-gen specs will look like. I have no idea how many teraflops there'll be". People need to stop using him as a source.

 

[fehu]

I don't know but *speculate* that this time, at least at the beginning, will be simpler to support xbox one, xbox one s, xbox one x, Lockhart, Anaconda, Pee Wee, PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, and PC, than last to this gen transition.

 

[DJ12]

To be fair it was from march last year, guaranteed he's got a good idea of that information now.

 

[Proelite]

9 to 12 is not so far from Ps5 and Xbox One difference. Far from it we would hear things from dev saying one is much more powerful than the other for example. Like it was the case after PS4 reveal.

Immediatly after GDC 2013 we begins to have rumor about the PS4 being more powerful in a meaningful way.

Like I said before Xbone had less bandwidth, 1/2 ROPs, 1/2 shader engines, in addition to the compute deficit.

 

[PSman1700]

Ok so now that we've established that 30% doesn't mean anything, we can officially declare that a 5700XT and a 2080ti are the basically the same. I'm sure the other side of the forums are nodding in knowing agreement.

Ok, PS5 is heavily underpowered compared to XSX. Well i will have to accept that, somehow, and live on further.

PS5 may have better 1st-party titles.

That's your opinion though.

Started of as "I have seen NG game it looks amazingballs"

God knows what someone else thinks about how a game looks.

People need to stop using him as a source.

But.... he says powerfull.....

 

[chris1515]

Just gonne leave this little nugget from Jason here (generally thought to be best journalist in gaming).

Making assumptions based on limited informations...

Everything will just be 2x more powerful...

Both will be close...

Sure sounds sounds specific.

Limited source in march 2019, this is not the same than December 2019.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

You are trying to fit your arbitrary "close" or far apart definition to last gen, when TF difference between PS4 and Xbone after patch was 40%.

Oh so now you changed goalposts to "PS4>XBone 40% was not close, but XBSX>PS5 30% is unnoticeable at least for Jason Schreier".
Got it.

Yes...? Going by test which says "full chip used" in 18WGP mode and specifying formula for GT/s as "2*4*Sum_all_SX_channel" I will make a leap of faith and say, its 2 * 10WGP GPU based on Navi 10, like both Sony predecessors.

So you thought AMD wouldn't have implemented any form of redundancy in the SoC's GPU, and the "full chip 18WGP" literally means only 18 WGP present in the silicon? And with chips being fabbed almost 2 years before release no less?

c) Hardware was behind, original goal was to have an internal PSU(like the 360 S etc), but due to time limitations and fear of RROD, they rushed the design of Xbox One to be overly cooled.

And at this point (probably up until late Q2 2020 I'd say) the PS5 can also get an improved cooling solution together with improved VRM to be able to push the clocks up.

No one is suggesting Sony was using a 40 CU chip up until late 2019 and now they'll adopt a 60 CU model.
What we have right now is the following info:
- Devs telling journalists and insiders that the PS5 and XBSX are close in performance
- Github leaks: Oberon with 36 active CUs (tested @ 2GHz back in June 2019) and XBSX with 56 active CUs
- Aquarius-something SoC measurements: ~315mm^2 PS5, ~380mm^2 XBSX
- Phil Spencer claiming XBSX is 2x XBoneX.

How can all of these be true?

1 - All the journalists and insiders think that 9.2 TFLOPs is close to 12 TFLOPs (which IMHO is a downright stupid assumption, 30% was never close in hardware performance, it's way more than RX 5700XT vs. RTX2080 Super and no one considers those close. Besides, the "close" or "similar specs" wording probably came from devs themselves and those would definitely not consider a 30% gap as "close").

2 - All the journalists and insiders that claimed close performance were given false information (hardly, given the track record of some of them).

3 - The PS5 is using an off-chip ray-tracing accelerator that levels things between both consoles.

4 - The PS5 SoC is planned to use more than 36 CUs out of a total of 40 present in the silicon (the PS4 Pro also has 40 total CUs), together with very aggressive clocks. I'd be wary of this option, if it wasn't for the 1 year-old "proof" already showing a whopping 2GHz.

5 - XBSX is actually closer to 9.2 TFLOPs than it is to 12 TFLOPs, maybe due to low GPU clocks around 1.4GHz.

6 - ?

And Klee is to be trusted, right?

I had no idea who kleegamefan was until recently. I'm talking about Jason Schreier's statements above all.

Ok, PS5 is heavily underpowered compared to XSX. Well i will have to accept that, somehow, and live on further.

Yes, we can tell that you and others sure seem to fantasize about that quite a bit.
I wish you luck though, maybe your wishes will come true.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Limited source in march 2019, this is not the same than December 2019.

But he said nothing of a note ever since. Its not Jason that came in and said stuff Klee did, all that mattered from Jason can be read from beginning of last year.

I made my case as to why I think Klee is bsing. For start, he got XSX CUs/clocks wrong and he confirmed BS rumor that has been around here for a year.

 

[Kaotik]

Apple is moving to 5nm to it opens up a big hole at 7nm. AMD is due to be the largest client at the 7nm node for TSMC.

On top of that AMD’s console chips will probably have long production runs which should give AMD priority over other clients.

I wonder if the "biggest 7nm client" is 7nm or all 7nm nodes combined.
Since these are Zen 2, it's safe to assume these will be 7nm (N7 or N7P) rather than 7nm EUV (N7+), while AMD is moving their own production to 7nm EUV (Zen 3, RDNA2 both confirmed as "7nm+" aka 7nm EUV)

 

[PSman1700]

All the journalists and insiders think that 9.2 TFLOPs is close to 12 TFLOPs (which IMHO is a downright stupid assumption

True, stupid, just don't read stupid assumptions from journalists then. We need numbers, not 'its powerfull, its alien, its close, its monster'. We want numbers @B3D i think. Hype from journalists doesn't net much results, this ain't restera or gaf. I think there is where the problem lies.

Most reliable evidence points to 9TF for PS5 and about 12TF for XSX, which realistically, seems very probable. MS has two units to come with, one high premium priced console alone is a bigger risc, something companies won't do. XSX also has a more unconventional big design which Sony unlikey will follow. MS has done a better job @BC in software, while Sony seems to be relying more on HW solutions, also looking in the past. The bigger install base for PS4 also means Sony likely would opt for a faster safer transition. It all makes sense, looking past crazy rumors from trolling journalists who come with zero numbers or evidence.

I'm talking about Jason Schreier's statements above all.

And he is another journalist, wanting more you know, attention? That what applies to Klee, applies to this Jason (never heard of him but ok).

Yes, we can tell that you and others sure seem to fantasize about that quite a bit.
I wish you luck though, maybe your wishes will come true.

Wait what? I first posted that the difference isn't that huge, ballpark 2013 consoles difference. Then i was told the other way around, i agreed that the diff is quite big then. What is it that you want exactly? Also, what do i have to wish for, nothing, i'm not buying a Sony machine for power, i buy it for the few exclusives i would miss out on if i wouldn't be owning one.

All the rumors, specs, etc, remind me of the PS360 generation, where MS went for powerfull 'of the shelf' parts, where Sony went with custom/exotic (slower) hardware. That is if i have to believe the more custom SSD, RT, VRS etc solutions. That generation MS did very well, considering it was their 2nd console coming from the OG xbox which only sold 24m units.

 

[AlNom]

1/2 shader engines

Both have 2.

 

[HBRU]

I don't know but *speculate* that this time, at least at the beginning, will be simpler to support xbox one, xbox one s, xbox one x, Lockhart, Anaconda, Pee Wee, PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, and PC, than last to this gen transition.

Opposite idea about ps5... I think they diffentiate quite a bit for the reasons I explained many times...