ATI - PS3 is Unrefined

[aaronspink]

See this is the imagination that our fellow developers need. Not the hating, it's not going to work, and why should they do that people here. There's probably a dozens of things that the second screen could be used for but some of you guys think that it's a non-factor.

Hell, devs can do CO-OP RIGHT NOW. And yet the vast majority don't. Cause it doesn't significantly improve the game, doesn't increase sales, etc. And if you have the money for another display, just bring the other PS3 over and hook it up. I doubt the devs are going to spend the resources to do a dual display co-op using 1 machine. Its all fine and nice to have imagination, I can think of a variety of ways things can be used, but that doesn't change the reality nor the economics of the situation (from both a developer AND a consumer perspective). Listen, the installed base of dual display machines has been higher on the PC for years than it will ever be on the PS3, and yet few if any developers even have options to take advantage of it.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself

 

[Tap In]

Co-op is great when done online

much easier than two displays

 

[patsu]

Well it would certainly be a solution to my problem.

Co-op games.

I would love to be able to enjoy my co-op games on a screen of my own...such as Halo1/2, Baldur's Gate, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Perfect Dark...RPGs, etc on my own screen while my buddy play with on his own screen. I would love to do this WITHOUT two copies of the game and for the matter WITHOUT the need for two systems. I'd do friggin cart-wheels actually...well maybe not but such a feature certainly would paint a big ole smile on my face.

I think this is just about the most practical/valuable application of dual-output on the PS3 and I don't think I would be nearly alone in my appreciation of being able to do this.

On a more specific note...I'd LOVE to be able to bring six of my buds over and start up some team games of UT2007....or both or teams fighting some other teams online...instant addiction....and if MS could do this with the X360....four player co-op without two copies of Halo3 or two X360s!...that would be pure ownage plain and simple.

Yes, if a game can do this. I'll buy it in a heart beat.

I don't play online but I play Halo co-op or multiplayer with friends frequently. We all hate the split screens and also cheating (Peek at the lower or upper frame and say "Oh that's where you are hiding...").

I don't mind slightly smaller screen in co-op or multiplayer to compensate for the bandwidth limitations, but I want a "proportional" screen (not narrow ones when they split it).

Most of my friends have a second unused monitor somewhere anyway. In fact, some of them have so many (from older PCs) that they want to give them away. My wife won't complain if it's just a temporary setup and then back to the storeroom those monitors go.

 

[mckmas8808]

Co-op is great when done online

much easier than two displays

Nice to know that everyone can get broadband. [news check] Everyone is not in a spot geographically to receive broadband [news check]

Hell, devs can do CO-OP RIGHT NOW. And yet the vast majority don't. Cause it doesn't significantly improve the game, doesn't increase sales, etc. And if you have the money for another display, just bring the other PS3 over and hook it up. I doubt the devs are going to spend the resources to do a dual display co-op using 1 machine. Its all fine and nice to have imagination, I can think of a variety of ways things can be used, but that doesn't change the reality nor the economics of the situation (from both a developer AND a consumer perspective). Listen, the installed base of dual display machines has been higher on the PC for years than it will ever be on the PS3, and yet few if any developers even have options to take advantage of it.

And to you. CO-OP is the big push nowadays. PD0 and Gears of War are pushing it big time. Hell, MS is pushing it big time themselves. I don't understand what's so wrong with being able to play a game like Splinter Cell 5 in multiplier on 2 different screens. Do you not want this to happen? Are you betting against it? Are you even a gamer?

 

[deathkiller]

Unfortunately, driving two similar displays at the same time would require twice the effective fill rate from the GPU. So how could the developers make their game work well in dual-screen mode? Make the single player game only use half the available fillrate? Make the co-op game half as detailed as the single player? Or?

Or making the two display co-op mode run at half resolution 1080p->2x720p or 720p->2x525p, is the same you do with split screen.

 

[Bobbler]

I think the point is it's just not practical.

The idea is neat in theory, but I sure as hell wouldn't drag another tv into my room/family room just to see some extra stuff on the second screen (which I'd inevitably have access to on a single screen, or the game would be unplayable -- unless the stuff on a second screen is junk info that isn't needed, and then there isn't really much of a point), and I have a feeling a lot of people would hold a similar view. It's a novelty feature. How much of the audience a developer actually count on using the feature? A lot has to do with the fact that if a developer has to power two screens thats going to no doubt be some kind of performance hit (depending on what its displaying on the screens) -- is it worth it for devs to take a hit like that just to please an unknown quantity of people (a likely low quantity) with a feature of questionable value?

 

[scificube]

Co-op doesn't make games better? I will respect your opinion, but also respectfully disagree. I will also say that in my opinion there is no requirement for something to be completely new from the ground up in order for it to be a good and worthwhile thing...IMO better is the real objective where as something being new can or cannot make for a better game experience. A better game experience will sell you more game more often than not.

Co-op is better done online? What if you don't have online? What if you have a slow connection? What if you don't even have the system in question?

Double-the fill rate...at 480p it's probably not an issue. At HD resolutions it 'could' be a problem but then it's not not like some level of sacrifice would be totally unacceptable given how even co-op split screen games already do it. Then again it's not impossible to think that some developers will structure their games with co-op in mind and manage resources accordingly. It's not a perfect solution but it is far and away better than nothing and as a matter of opinion better than buying two copies of the game or a another system entirely if you don't have to.

To me it seems a good thing. I suppose I'm a glass half full kind of fellow even if that's a bad thing at times.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think the point is it's just not practical.

The idea is neat in theory, but I sure as hell wouldn't drag another tv into my room/family room just to see some extra stuff on the second screen (which I'd inevitably have access to on a single screen, or the game would be unplayable -- unless the stuff on a second screen is junk info that isn't needed, and then there isn't really much of a point), and I have a feeling a lot of people would hold a similar view. It's a novelty feature. How much of the audience a developer actually count on using the feature? A lot has to do with the fact that if a developer has to power two screens thats going to no doubt be some kind of performance hit (depending on what its displaying on the screens) -- is it worth it for devs to take a hit like that just to please an unknown quantity of people (a likely low quantity) with a feature of questionable value?

Practical to you is different then to me. Playing a game using a remote controller like wand is not pratical either, yet someone thought it was good enough to implement to a console. So maybe you should think outside the box and accept that things next-gen should actually change from what we are used to in the past.

 

[Titanio]

You don't get it: I'm saying Cell's gonna be helping RSX. I'm contrasting RSX with Xenos which has a broader and more efficient capability. Gah.

Well, a more flexible capability..if unproven thusfar.

The original point was presented as a problem..it'd only be a problem if PS3 as a whole could not face it. You have to consider the context within which a chip is operating. For example, you may bemoan the lack of something on RSX, like for example a tesselator, but in a system like PS3, a tesselator like that would seem a little less necessary than it might in X360 IMO. So compare RSX to Xenos all you like, but you're focussing on just a part of the picture, even in so far as just rendering is concerned (and that's not to diminish the capability or role of either).

I haven't seen it talk in the downloadable video, neither have I read anything like it. It ws blinking and doing some simple facial expressions, but nothing as radicl as a smile or a furrowed brow, that'd ruin a static SSS solution...

I can't remember how "radical" it was, but they had a scene from the movie with the Molina model "acting", with lip synching, facial expression etc. Smiles, furrowed brows, I can't remember..but you may want to check it out for yourself.

Phil Harrison said this about it:

The Doc Ock head - the Alfred Molina head - is actually more of a Cell demo than it is a graphics demo, because we're calculating hugely complicated light sources in real-time on the Cell, even to the point where we calculate the angle at which light enters the skin, the way that the light is then coloured by your blood, and the way that it is then reflected back out. It's something called transmission. Skin is hugely complicated - if I put my finger over a light, for example, you can see that the light is coming through my skin. We were simulating that - emulating, simulating, kind of a fine line - we were simulating that on the Doc Ock head demo.

Eurogamer: So that's really pushing the Cell rather than the graphics chipset?

Phil Harrison: Yeah. Those are really hardcore maths problems which the Cell is really good at solving.

I don't know if you class that as SSS or..

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I can't remember how "radical" it was, but they had a scene from the movie with the Molina model "acting", with lip synching, facial expression etc. Smiles, furrowed brows, I can't remember..but you may want to check it out for yourself.

Just watched it a few hours ago, and it wasn't drastic enough to ruin a pre-calculated SSS effect. Think about a wide smile, or a totally angry expression, that'd be more likely to show if it's static or not.

I don't know if you class that as SSS or..

It certainly is SSS, but probably using a precalculated dataset from Sony Imageworks, the VFX house who created the original character. It is possible to store this kind of data, demonstrated by that statue demo of ATI as well, but it won't be updated with any deformations. Now, on a full creature, it'd be quickly spotted as it moves its limbs, but on a face, you can get away with a static solution as long as you don't apply any serious facial expressions on it. And the most obvious place to look for SSS would be the ears that don't move anyway

 

[Titanio]

It certainly is SSS, but probably using a precalculated dataset from Sony Imageworks, the VFX house who created the original character.

Why's he talking about Cell in that context, then? It's possible he wasn't clear on the matter himself, of course, but taking it at face value..

 

[Sis]

Well it would certainly be a solution to my problem.

Co-op games.

I would love to be able to enjoy my co-op games on a screen of my own...such as Halo1/2, Baldur's Gate, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Perfect Dark...RPGs, etc on my own screen while my buddy play with on his own screen. I would love to do this WITHOUT two copies of the game and for the matter WITHOUT the need for two systems. I'd do friggin cart-wheels actually...well maybe not but such a feature certainly would paint a big ole smile on my face.

I think this is just about the most practical/valuable application of dual-output on the PS3 and I don't think I would be nearly alone in my appreciation of being able to do this.

On a more specific note...I'd LOVE to be able to bring six of my buds over and start up some team games of UT2007....or both or teams fighting some other teams online...instant addiction....and if MS could do this with the X360....four player co-op without two copies of Halo3 or two X360s!...that would be pure ownage plain and simple.

I like this idea.

.Sis

 

[MrWibble]

Why's he talking about Cell in that context, then? It's possible he wasn't clear on the matter himself, of course, but taking it at face value..

Well you could ask DeanA and see if he'll say anything... I think you have to say his name three times quickly to make him appear.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Doesnt the nvidia luna demo do SSS? Is it "precalculated"?

I think you have to say his name three times quickly to make him appear.

DeanA .... DeanA .... DeanA

 

[Brimstone]

Technology has shifted to lighter weight displays. CRT's have dominated as displays in the past. The trend has totally shifted to much more mobile displays. A 17 inch CRT takes up a lot of space and has a hefty weight. A 23 inch LCD screen is a piece of cake move around. Just two years ago a 23 inch LCD was a very exotic piece of technology, today it's a standard display for XB360 kiosks.

Lightweight LCD displays are proliferating fast and are only going to become more common as the prices continue to drop.

The developers at Tiburon play the games they make I'm sure. They have to playtest them. I can seem them putting in dual display support just to more efficently test their games. Searching through all the data during a draft/recruiting period takes time because of the sub screen you have to access to get all the details.

Take a major league baseball game. Not only do you have your own Major League team, you also have minor league teams where you can bring up players from. It's nice to see the stats of all the players as you decide who to move up and down.


Or how about the KOEI Romance of the Three Kingdoms style of games. You have different armies with generals that all have different stat levels, troop amounts, troop skill levels, and so on.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Doesnt the nvidia luna demo do SSS? Is it "precalculated"?

That is a nice effect, but a fake nonetheless.

 

[Sis]

Take a major league baseball game. Not only do you have your own Major League team, you also have minor league teams where you can bring up players from. It's nice to see the stats of all the players as you decide who to move up and down.

In a bizarre way, this reminded me of the Dreamcast's VMUs (since you could make play selections from them in NFL2k). And then I had this vision of the PS3 controller with a 20 inch LCD monitor hanging from the bottom of it.

Eh, made me chuckle.

.Sis

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Take a major league baseball game. Not only do you have your own Major League team, you also have minor league teams where you can bring up players from. It's nice to see the stats of all the players as you decide who to move up and down.

Or how about the KOEI Romance of the Three Kingdoms style of games. You have different armies with generals that all have different stat levels, troop amounts, troop skill levels, and so on.

How would these on a second screen facilitate gameplay? In the former, with up to 1920x1080 pixels, it's not like there's a loack of space to fit statistics alongside other graphics. And in the latter example, if you need to keep an eye on some essential stats you won't be watching the nice battle scenes, and if you're watching the nice battle scenes you won't be paying much attention to the stats.

There's only so much a human brain can pay attention to at a given moment, and only so much an eye can look at with fidelity of vision. While reading headlines passing along the bottom of the screen during the news, I'm not really taking in what they're saying, and vice versa. While playing GuildWars I tend to spend more time looking at the state of the spell and feat icons then look at the combat graphics. My eye can't see both the icons and the graphics and as the icons are the time critical gameplay essential output, they take my attention. There's a few games I know where the info is in the top corner which obscures the action. If this information was moved to another screen it'd elliminate the obscuring of the action, but require the eye to make a more dramatic shifty away from the action when you want to reference that info. A better idea is a change in the presentation so essential information is kept close to the action, such as Health bars being shown next to the player character.

There are millions of EyeToy's out there, which are small and convenient, but only a handful of games support EyeToy features. There are plenty of dual-screen PCs out there, but not many games that support dual-screen. There are no households that will as standard have two TVs set up side-by-side.

Dual-screen support on PS3 will require a jury-rigged second display which few but the most extreme of gamers are likely to go to the effort for. Supporting two screens for multiplayer could be good and something players might ocassionally go to the effort to set up, but for most uses a second screen isn't going to add anything except workload for the developers.

 

[cthellis42]

Think of it like sperm donation Offer members of the public a few quid in return for being scanned. People will be queueing up...

Ok, while I know we've progressed a long way since this remark and I'm not actually adding anything to it, I just had to comment because the sucker keeps giving me the giggle-fits.

Usually the only "sperm donation" remarks I hear lobbed out come when talking about Hentai titles...

 

[Powderkeg]

Practical to you is different then to me. Playing a game using a remote controller like wand is not pratical either, yet someone thought it was good enough to implement to a console. So maybe you should think outside the box and accept that things next-gen should actually change from what we are used to in the past.

Just because someone decided to implement it doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it will sell well.

The Ford Edsel introduced many new technologies that are still used in cars today, but that didn't stop it from becoming one of the most well known flops in history.