ATI - PS3 is Unrefined

[Jawed]

Not to sound smart or piss you off or anything, but are you saying that the RSX is close to a SM2a GPU, while Xenos is close to a SM4.0? If this is true then I can't see how the PS3 will keep up after the first year (as far as graphics go)?

Precisely.

SM2a is better than SM2 and mostly better than SM2b, by the way. NVidia was very ambitious when it built the Geforce FX (the original SM2a GPU) and put a hell of a lot of features/capabilities into SM2a - hence SM3 doesn't look very different when you take away vertex texturing and dynamic branching. I think there's a fair argument in saying that NVidia got distracted by features and let the performance suffer in FX.

But dynamic branching, particularly, is a big big miss in RSX. NVidia really would need to pull a big one with a G71-derived RSX (which I don't for a second believe, by the way) because G70's dynamic branching is nothing more than glorified static branching.

What RSX lacks in finesse and features, it partly makes up in brute performance.

Cell saves the day, though. It has 100+ GFLOPs of spare computing power over XB360 to come to the rescue. There's no choice about doing particle generation, tessellation and other fancy vertex work on RSX, so Cell will do what CPUs have traditionally done. If you take that "spare power" and compare it with any P4 or A64, you can see it's plenty :smile:

As far as I can tell, most of the changes with DX10 are focussed on geometry. Xenos is only a subset of it (and some of DX10 is PC-specific, anyway). In terms of geometry, then, we're still in the dark as to the value of Xenos's features - much as we are over the efficiency gains that a unified shader architecture provides. After all, v1.0 is often not very good.

So, we gotta wait and see.

Jawed

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

So, displaying charts for character status, racing courses, maps, text chats, web browser, and other 2D data onto the second display require devs to devote reasonable resources?

Correct. Whose going to buy a second HDTV to display a big 2D map in 1080p? If I'm a developer, I'm going to say no one worth my time.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

But XB produced nForce 2.

The nforce chipset was in development alongside the Xbox and was a venture between AMD (with their HyperTransport tech) and Nvidia. Without the Xbox, nForce2 would have still come out.

As for the legal stuff, I'm not sure what that was, but large companies are invariably in half a dozen legal challenges at any point. XB gave nVidia a very popular line in motherboard chipsets, and a 20 million selling GPU with higher than usual profits, using a variation on existing tech which was followed by the Ti4xxx series that was well received and sold well. I don't see where their focus was taken away from the PC space or how they lost anything due to their XB work.

I disagree. I believe that Nvidia would have released these chipsets and GPU's regardless of whether the Xbox came out or not.

 

[one]

Correct. Whose going to buy a second HDTV to display a big 2D map in 1080p? If I'm a developer, I'm going to say no one worth my time.

Pleeeease, I remember I and others have replied the same old reply 1000 times on this very forum. This is really old.
You can connect a cheapo $400 Dell LCD to PS3 via a $20 HDMI-to-DVI cable.

 

[expletive]

Precisely.

SM2a is better than SM2 and mostly better than SM2b, by the way. NVidia was very ambitious when it built the Geforce FX (the original SM2a GPU) and put a hell of a lot of features/capabilities into SM2a - hence SM3 doesn't look very different when you take away vertex texturing and dynamic branching. I think there's a fair argument in saying that NVidia got distracted by features and let the performance suffer in FX.

But dynamic branching, particularly, is a big big miss in RSX. NVidia really would need to pull a big one with a G71-derived RSX (which I don't for a second believe, by the way) because G70's dynamic branching is nothing more than glorified static branching.

What RSX lacks in finesse and features, it partly makes up in brute performance.

Cell saves the day, though. It has 100+ GFLOPs of spare computing power over XB360 to come to the rescue. There's no choice about doing particle generation, tessellation and other fancy vertex work on RSX, so Cell will do what CPUs have traditionally done. If you take that "spare power" and compare it with any P4 or A64, you can see it's plenty :smile:

As far as I can tell, most of the changes with DX10 are focussed on geometry. Xenos is only a subset of it (and some of DX10 is PC-specific, anyway). In terms of geometry, then, we're still in the dark as to the value of Xenos's features - much as we are over the efficiency gains that a unified shader architecture provides. After all, v1.0 is often not very good.

So, we gotta wait and see.

Jawed

When you say Cell 'saves the day' i'm reading that as Cell will support the RSX to make it 'whole' compared to the feature set/performance in Xenos. In your mind, how much of the cell would be need to be utilized in order for cell to, as you put it, 'save the day'? 20%, 2 SPEs, etc?

 

[expletive]

Pleeeease, I remember I and others have replied the same old reply 1000 times on this very forum. This is really old.
You can connect a cheapo $400 Dell LCD to PS3 via a $20 HDMI-to-DVI cable.

Which is $400, one cable, and 1.5' of shelf space more than 99.95% of the people in the world care to do.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

Pleeeease, I remember I and others have replied the same old reply 1000 times on this very forum. This is really old.
You can connect a cheapo $400 Dell LCD to PS3 via a $20 HDMI-to-DVI cable.

Out of the hundreds of thousands of end users, how many will actually use this set up? Tens. If I'm a developer I don't waste the extra time (money) to do it.

 

[Jawed]

When you say Cell 'saves the day' i'm reading that as Cell will support the RSX to make it 'whole' compared to the feature set/performance in Xenos. In your mind, how much of the cell would be need to be utilized in order for cell to, as you put it, 'save the day'? 20%, 2 SPEs, etc?

Dunno.

There are some clues in the massive speed-ups that a second CPU core provides in D3 engine, but that's a seriously limited starting point.

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/quake_4_dual-core_performance/page4.asp

Jawed

 

[London Geezer]

I suppose that for work related applications, a dual screen setup would be quite useful. PS3 is said to be "more than a console" afterall, especially with Linux on board and all...

Personally i don't see myself ever using 2 screens, but i'm sure that more than "tens" of users out of more than 100 million will use it. Much like the 10,000 linux kits for PS2 sold out overnight, and would have sold much more if any more than 10,000 were made available.

As has been discussed, it's obvious that taking a HDMI port out of PS3 would not make it any significantly cheaper, the GPU having 2 digital outputs already anyway.

 

[macabre]

Out of the hundreds of thousands of end users, how many will actually use this set up? Tens. If I'm a developer I don't waste the extra time (money) to do it.

Why is it so much more work ? Games have their stats, maps etc in ´displayed in the HUD or built into the menu. I don`t know, but displaying it seperately doesn`t look like a whole lot of work to me.
That doesn`t mean it isn`t though,the devs here should know.

 

[Sis]

Correct. Whose going to buy a second HDTV to display a big 2D map in 1080p? If I'm a developer, I'm going to say no one worth my time.

Well, Forza devs put in that unsupported 3 Xbox/3 monitor 180 degree view mode. It is not out of the question.

The problem I see is that anything useful--anything that would give me an edge as a gamer--I would see a backlash against the developer from the 99.9% percent of the players who don't have that setup. Especially if you could use this setup in online games.

.Sis

 

[expletive]

Well, Forza devs put in that unsupported 3 Xbox/3 monitor 180 degree view mode. It is not out of the question.

Wow, I didnt even know this existed.

The problem I see is that anything useful--anything that would give me an edge as a gamer--I would see a backlash against the developer from the 99.9% percent of the players who don't have that setup. Especially if you could use this setup in online games.

.Sis

This is actually a very good point. One reason the developers of Battelfield 2 for the PC are not implementing true widescreen support is becuase gamers without it would be at a 'field of vision' disadvantage against those with it.

 

[Geo]

This is actually a very good point. One reason the developers of Battelfield 2 for the PC are not implementing true widescreen support is becuase gamers without it would be at a 'field of vision' disadvantage against those with it.

That strikes me as an incredibly lame excuse. I mean, extend that logically and it gets real ridiculous real quick.

 

[Sis]

That strikes me as an incredibly lame excuse. I mean, extend that logically and it gets real ridiculous real quick.

It may be a lame reason--I do not believe it's a lame excuse. Back a year ago, or so, when the keyboard/mouse adapter was first sold for the Xbox I heard a lot of outcry about how people who used these should be banned from Xbox Live, since it gave them an unfair advantage.

I believe this thinking is much more prominent in the console space given that everyone starts at a level playing field.

.Sis

 

[Geo]

I suppose I could see where it would be a little more prevalent for the console. . .but then the post I was responding to specifically said PC version.

Tho even on the console side, I would think the point of the excersize is to separate us from our cash by making accessories and upgrades desirable for legitimate reasons (like, hey, you can actually play the game better).

 

[zidane1strife]

I'd be totally surprised if Cell could calculate SSS in realtime, especially at HD resolution close-ups. As I've mentioned back when the demo was first presented, beause the head is completely static, it is more likely that the SSS data has been precalculated.

Oh, but the head is anything but static, they had it giving a speech and all , and as always it's supposed to be a demonstration of the power the chips in ps3 will have, DeanA could probably clarify this, though.

Not to sound smart or piss you off or anything, but are you saying that the RSX is close to a SM2a GPU, while Xenos is close to a SM4.0? If this is true then I can't see how the PS3 will keep up after the first year (as far as graphics go)?

Interesting isn't it, there's definitely something strange going on here. I mean look at it this way the ps3 alpha and beta kits demos, have pretty much kept up or surpassed, depending on who you ask, with s/w on final h/w shown already on shelves or upcoming for the x360 while usually running at twice the framerate. We're told that things like the Alfred Molina head demo are not only feasible for use in realtime scenes on ps3 games but that they could easily improve on it and that it didn't even use the best textures the h/w could handle! Now I've not seen anything yet on x360 now or upcoming that even begins to approach this lvl of detail that is said to be within the grasp of ps3 by a trusted source, IMO.

Time will tell the true strength of 360. But things like lack of Aniso, vast use of 30fps even in some upcoming games, many non-fighter characters and even some fighter characters lacking in the poly department, and many upcoming games looking worse than before and being compared to psp games does not show me the light. This is the first time I've seen console games mistook for portable games I'll wait till e3 and see what they've cooking in there.

 

[mckmas8808]

Correct. Whose going to buy a second HDTV to display a big 2D map in 1080p? If I'm a developer, I'm going to say no one worth my time.

HELLO McFly! You don't have to have a 1080p HDTV for the second screen. A small 15" flat screen or a regular SDTV will work.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Oh, but the head is anything but static, they had it giving a speech and all , and as always it's supposed to be a demonstration of the power the chips in ps3 will have, DeanA could probably clarify this, though.

I haven't seen it talk in the downloadable video, neither have I read anything like it. It ws blinking and doing some simple facial expressions, but nothing as radicl as a smile or a furrowed brow, that'd ruin a static SSS solution...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

HELLO McFly! You don't have to have a 1080p HDTV for the second screen. A small 15" flat screen or a regular SDTV will work.

How far away do you sit from your TV when playing? Anything below 20" would be too small, at least for most people's living room...

 

[mckmas8808]

Time will tell the true strength of 360. But things like lack of Aniso, vast use of 30fps even in some upcoming games, many non-fighter characters and even some fighter characters lacking in the poly department, and many upcoming games looking worse than before and being compared to psp games does not show me the light. This is the first time I've seen console games mistook for portable games I'll wait till e3 and see what they've cooking in there.

That's my point. I had a diminishing returns rant in this thread or some other thread about next-gen systems. And for the last 2 days my head has been spinning around at 100 miles per hour.

Like you said on one hand we have a developer that actually help code the Alfred Molina demo head that says that it really didn't tax the h/w too much and that with up to date PS3 h/w and better software solutions it would be done in next-gen games.

Then we have an obvious smart CGi guy (i.e. Laa-yosh) that says he doesn't see heads of that caliber in future PS3 games using that technology. I just don't know what to think anymore. My head is about to explode.