ART of War, nV vs. ATi your thoughts

[Razor1]

Here is a post I put up on Rage, I just want to get your guys thoughts on the matter :smile:

Have any of you guys read Sun-Tzu's Art of war, or a more contemporary translation geared towards business?

Pretty much nV did three things straight out of that book and a forth that hasn't yet been seen but will be seen later with upcoming financials if things go the way they are,

"Make your opponents strength into thier weakness" ATi has a superior chip but die size is larger, creates more heat etc etc.

"Make your weakness into your strength" nV's over all performance is less, they cut down price to cover this

"Take the high ground, Be first to the battlefield" nV did this with the gf7 introduction, ATi is late and must weather the storm for OEM deals

"When going to battle know the outcome before you start" nV has a double edged sword no matter what ATi does nV wins.

Im sure there were more areas of the book that nV covered but these are the things I just picked up just by doing a cursory look at we know today

About R&D I mention this because ATi hasn't had a good quarter for the last year or so. ATi needs to start pooling money now for whats after the r600. Even the r600 probably went through some investment cuts along the road at least in the later part of development, and this is where the most money is needed.

This is why I said nV's managment is kick ass, I don't see ATi doing these things mentioned in a book that every Management School is required to read. This is why Japan in the past killed the US car market, they were just simply better in every aspect of business negotiations, deals, market pentration, and the rules of the market.

 

[_xxx_]

nV were just plain lucky that ATI didn't make it on time with R520, that's all so far. And those tactics are employed by any sane businessman on this planet.

Add to your list: "And when it works, tread on your enemy even harder so they don't have an easy chance to strike back" (from _xxx_'s "Art of Doing Business" )

Everything can happen in this business, nV might get into the very same trouble next year as ATI did last year (think NV30, that wasn't much different), it's nothing you can know in advance. Both companies have a bunch of very capable people, so give me a crystal ball and I'll tell you how it all works out...

EDIT: and yes, nV's management are real wolves as it seems, but ATI's problems are well known and these were not related to any failures in management AFAIK. And now they have to move on with what they have, even if it means selling more expensive chips with potential losses in order to keep the market share.

 

[John Reynolds]

Even the r600 probably went through some investment cuts along the road at least in the later part of development, and this is where the most money is needed.

And you know this. . . .?

 

[Razor1]

Well as Jen said most of thier R&D money for thier nV50 will be put into the chip now until deployment I don't see it changing for ATi . THis is true with software aswell, most of the money expenditure ramps up just before going gold.

 

[Dave Baumann]

R&D is always the last thing to get cut.

 

[_xxx_]

Another law from _xxx_'s book: "Don't trust a word of what managers say until you saw, smelled, tasted and had sex with it yourself"

 

[Razor1]

nV were just plain lucky that ATI didn't make it on time with R520, that's all so far. And those tactics are employed by any sane businessman on this planet.

Add to your list: "And when it works, tread on your enemy even harder so they don't have an easy chance to strike back" (from _xxx_'s "Art of Doing Business" )

Everything can happen in this business, nV might get into the very same trouble next year as ATI did last year (think NV30, that wasn't much different), it's nothing you can know in advance. Both companies have a bunch of very capable people, so give me a crystal ball and I'll tell you how it all works out...

EDIT: and yes, nV's management are real wolves as it seems, but ATI's problems are well known and these were not related to any failures in management AFAIK. And now they have to move on with what they have, even if it means selling more expensive chips with potential losses in order to keep the market share.

There is some luck involved, but nV seems to have at least 1 back up plan if they can't compete head on with ATi since the gf fx failure. We see the nV 47 in drivers right around the time the r480 was released and shortly disappeared and noted as cancelled, this seemed a bit unusual, either the g 70 was the nv47 or its a variation (I think it was a varation with increased quads) even that thats still very dangerous to look at, a 16 pipe card with higher clocks and abundant shader power when comparied to a gf 6.

 

[Razor1]

Another law from _xxx_'s book: "Don't trust a word of what managers say until you saw, smelled, tasted and had sex with it yourself"

LOL

 

[Razor1]

R&D is always the last thing to get cut.

R&D and shipment of products will be the only area that are flexible in terms. Other areas if cut we can figure that out quickly.

 

[_xxx_]

R&D aren't "cut" in that sense, but a certain "consolidation" of the product line can happen (cutting down on variants, replacing less profitable developments with more profitable ones - which in return swallow more R&D money etc.). That's an art in itself which I unfortunately still have little grasp of, but I see it happen in my industry ever so often.

 

[Moloch]

I'm not sure how nvidia wins no matter what ati does.
This isn't amd and intel people

As has been said nvidia just got lucky, pure and simple.
Ati might not be making as much a profit but they still some superior products imo.
The 7900GT is pretty much what nvidia has over ati atm.
Don't forget that nvidia is still have availability problems.

Um the G70 is the NV47 afaik.
Thats what rinvatuner tells me I have.

 

[Razor1]

R&D aren't "cut" in that sense, but a certain "consolidation" of the product line can happen (cutting down on variants, replacing less profitable developments with more profitable ones - which in return swallow more R&D money etc.). That's an art in itself which I unfortunately still have little grasp of, but I see it happen in my industry ever so often.

Very true XXX

 

[Razor1]

I'm not sure how nvidia wins no matter what ati does.
This isn't amd and intel people

As has been said nvidia just got lucky, pure and simple.
Ati might not be making as much a profit but they still some superior products imo.
The 7900GT is pretty much what nvidia has over ati atm.
Don't forget that nvidia is still have availability problems.

Um the G70 is the NV47 afaik.
Thats what rinvatuner tells me I have.

Well I say nV wins no matter what, there are two parts to this. Marketshare and profits. nV can cut prices to the point ATi can't compete with, if ATi goes to the extent to keep up with price wars, they will have no profits on most of thier chips, while nV matains thier margins (but to a lesser degree). ATi will not let nV gain marketshare this way but at the end poor financials will show up.

Yes this isn't AMD and Intel if you look at it on the outside, but this is exactly what Intel has been doing to AMD, cutting into thier own profits to prevent AMD to get a foot hold. Intel is big enough to do this. ATi isn't. nV on the other hand is capable of doing this since thier chips are that much cheaper at least from what we know.

 

[Moloch]

Well I say nV wins no matter what, there are two parts to this. Marketshare and profits. nV can cut prices to the point ATi can't compete with, if ATi goes to the extent to keep up with price wars, they will have no profits on most of thier chips, while nV matains thier margins (but to a lesser degree). ATi will not let nV gain marketshare this way but at the end poor financials will show up.

Yes this isn't AMD and Intel if you look at it on the outside, but this is exactly what Intel has been doing to AMD, cutting into thier own profits to prevent AMD to get a foot hold. Intel is big enough to do this. ATi isn't. nV on the other hand is capable of doing this since thier chips are that much cheaper at least from what we know.

Except that amd has a fraction of the marketshare intel does
I have all my confident in ati doing what they think is best

 

[Razor1]

Except that amd has a fraction of the marketshare intel does
I have all my confident in ati doing what they think is best

ATi can change the trend by introducing lower priced competative chips, this is definite possibility, but only if they had some in the works. But they have to do it before June and before nV's own cards start to drop in price.

 

[Jawed]

ATI is already earning back a lot of its investment in R600 - it's called Xenos with another chunk in R5xx

Jawed

 

[Razor1]

Good point jawed :smile:

 

[Moloch]

ATi can change the trend by introducing lower priced competative chips, this is definite possibility, but only if they had some in the works. But they have to do it before June and before nV's own cards start to drop in price.

I'm not saying they're invisable but don't think they'll effectively kill themselves

 

[Razor1]

No sepuku?

What I would like to see, is ATi turn on the burner, let loose a r570 and derivitives it should really put heat on nV.

Is is possible to have 12 pipes with all 16 TMU's going?

 

[Moloch]

No sepuku?

What I would like to see, is ATi turn on the burner, let loose a r570 and derivitives it should really put heat on nV.

Is is possible to have 12 pipes with all 16 TMU's going?

I'd rather see 580/ updated RV530 based parts.. but that's me.