Are We Alone?

B/ we are the first life to evolve intelligent enuf for starflight (not happened yet, but within 100 years it will)
:D

37 years ago we could travel to the moon. Now we can travel to ... ISS.
Which, if you were standing on the moon with a good enough telescope to see it, would look like it was barely off the surface of the earth.

Some figures to compare:
Code:
 Distance to:
ISS:                             350 km 
moon:                        380 000 km (Average)
mars:                     56 000 000 km (Aug 2003, closest in 60 000 years)
Proxima Centauri: 38 000 000 000 000 km (Closest star)

So we went backwards a factor 1000 for manned travel over the last 37 years. And you think we'll gain that back plus a factor 100 000 000 more in the next 100 years.

And don't forget that there's nothing that says that Proxima Centauri will have a habitable planet. (To use as a base for next space hop.) Maybe you'll need to go 10 or 100 times longer to find the closest star with a somewhat habitable planet. I'm not beeing too picky about "habitable". I just want it to have a surface to build on, a gravity that won't crush us, a temperature that can be regulated for a good indoor climate, and resources for building materials and energy.


I doubt that we as a species will be capable of inter stellar travel before we go extinct (destroy ourself).
 
:D

37 years ago we could travel to the moon. Now we can travel to ... ISS.
Which, if you were standing on the moon with a good enough telescope to see it, would look like it was barely off the surface of the earth.

Some figures to compare:
Code:
 Distance to:
ISS:                             350 km 
moon:                        380 000 km (Average)
mars:                     56 000 000 km (Aug 2003, closest in 60 000 years)
Proxima Centauri: 38 000 000 000 000 km (Closest star)

So we went backwards a factor 1000 for manned travel over the last 37 years. And you think we'll gain that back plus a factor 100 000 000 more in the next 100 years.

And don't forget that there's nothing that says that Proxima Centauri will have a habitable planet. (To use as a base for next space hop.) Maybe you'll need to go 10 or 100 times longer to find the closest star with a somewhat habitable planet. I'm not beeing too picky about "habitable". I just want it to have a surface to build on, a gravity that won't crush us, a temperature that can be regulated for a good indoor climate, and resources for building materials and energy.


I doubt that we as a species will be capable of inter stellar travel before we go extinct (destroy ourself).

true i believe we're in a bit of a mini darkages at present (but thats another topic)
whilst we havent gone to the moon recently.
technology has advanced ( at an exponentual rate ) + we certainly are closer than we were 37years ago to visiting another planet, it just requires the first major step, which usually takes a long time, see countless examples in the past, years to map the first genome or clone the first animal, njow theres new results popping up each week. i just read a quote from alexander bell something along the lines of 'i can imagine some time in the future when every city in the USA will have a telephone' (nows theres more phones than ppl)
im sure u agree that once we have made the initial step of visiting another planet around another star, the rest are a nobrainer
 
Technology may have advanced but I dont think we are alot closer to visiting a planet in a manned space craft than we were 40 years ago. The next moon mission is gonna be in 5 to 10 years? it still takes ages to do something we already did multiple times a few decades back. We are still stuck we expenisve not reuseable booster rockets, our new spacecraft is a souped up apollo instead of a evolution of the spaceshuttle wich I hoped for. I dont have high hopes for NASA/ESA really evolving mankind into space because obviosly goverments arnt interrested in spending alot of cash on it. In 3 years time the US spend about 20 times the amount of cash the NASA gets each year on the war in iraq.

Private companies probably are going to make the big differance. In a few years time you can get to space for as little as 200k and the launch cost are far little than what nasa has and the crafts are reusable for the most parts. Sure those crafts arnt as good as those from nasa yet in terms of reach etc. Depending on the interest from the massmarket I wouldnt be suprised if we have something like a space version of the 747 in 30 - 50 years wich gets you to the moon. NASA just takes to damn long to do something.
 
Yes. The environments are too dissimilar. Where you get cross pollination are areas where they mix. For example, animals that lived in the shallows becoming amphibious and eventually evolving to be permanent land dwellers.

Besides, going from photosynthesis to chemical synthesis (not to mention the temperature and pressure differences) requires a significant change in the basic biology of the baseline bacteria. Occam's razor would dictate that chemical-synthesizing bacteria evolved there, and communities of life sprung up from those bacteria, not adapted to that region of the ocean from life that is built around photosynthesis.

To clarify: Are you saying that the chemosynthetic autotrophs that inhabit areas around deep sea vents evolved separately and independantly and are 'normal' creatures that have adapted to the environment?

If so I would say I disagree. While the bacterial chemosynthetic autotrophs that thrive on the sulfer and carbon dioxide from the vents are unique when contrasted with phototrophs, I think looking at the food chan in these communities is quite telling. The bacteria form a mat which crustaceans feed and larger organisms like deap see vent crabs, snails, and so forth feed on. While they form their own unique ecosystem and have adaptive traits to handle the extreme heat/cold, pressure, and chemicals (both in the water and food) these creatures clearly are not unique evolutionary products from a different evolutionary chain. They are simply crabs, clams, shrimp, snails, and such that have adapted to to this environment. The mathametical odds of a completely separate evolutionary trunk producing the snails, crabs, etc is impossible. These creatures are very well adapted to the extremely harsh and divergent environment of vent life, so much so they even exhibit reproductive methods that accomodate the 'death' of a vent (e.g. some vent crab larvae can ascend up to 1,000m above the vent and 100km which allows the species to find and populate other vents).

Now this is just my opinion, but seeing how much larger (read: complex, more developed, less flexible) organisms are well suited and adapted to the special needs of vent life -- and they clearly were part of the phototroph foodchain and adapted to the chemotroph ecosystem of the vents -- I don't believe bacteria would have a difficult time adapting to this environment. Bacteria are the most savvy creatures on this planet. Bacteria are everywhere and in large numbers. Yes, chemosynthesis is a huge departure from photosynthesis in metabolic pathways, yet we don't bat an eye at bacteria like botulism that is anaerobic. Life has many adaptations in regards to how they obtain Oxygen. The contrast between a plant, fungus, and carnivor are all pretty telling imo: where there is 'food' to be preyed upon, there is an organism to fill the void. Vents offer food and the most versatile of Earth life, bacteria, are the most likely organism to adapt. The fact much larger, less flexible, organisms could adjust to form a foodchain gives me no doubt that bacteria were up to the task. The scope of pathways needed to evolve from basic building blocks like lipids, ATP, ammino acids, and so forth to a self regulating and sustaining single celled organism are crazy. So if this is possible, and for it to spontaneous develop a wide host of adaptations and divergences to cope with all sorts of harsh environments (like air!) I think these little buggers are up to the task.

Of course I think they were created that way, so what do I know ;) See, all that college bio and chem wasted on nothing! (Ps- sorry if I was reading your statement incorrectly).
 
One thing to keep in mind when traveling to other planets is that while it looks like it will take a while, in reality it won't. With relativity travel times would be cut down significantly for those traveling to other planets. On the down side you effectively severe ties with wherever you just left. Your home would likely evolve into a different species by the time you actually made it anywhere and with the time it would take signals to make it back and forth communication almost isn't worth attempting. Outside of just saying, "hey i'm here". Another thing i'm not sure about, would time be progressing faster towards the center of the universe? If so it might not make sense to even bother coming out to where we are?

The only real way to get anywhere would be to travel faster than the speed of light. And if that happened something really weird would likely be occurring and you'd be going a hell of a lot faster than just the speed of light. Also the bigger the better would still probably hold true. Things just tend to be more efficient when done on a larger scale and efficiency would likely be key.

Also some food for thought. Ideally if you're building towards long term goals you're constructing things that won't ever go away. Planets are constantly changing so it would make more sense that space itself would be colonized, not other planets. You'd want something you could keep reusing over and over and built upon. Keep in mind there are relatively simple ways to simulate gravity and developing a relatively self sustaining environment isn't out of the realm of possibility. Anything that would be expended could be mined from any planet, habitable or not.

Another oddball thing to think about. Growing population becomes increasingly difficult unless you can convert matter because at some point in time you start running out of actual material to make people.
 
We've found life at the bottom of the ocean, for example, that receives no sunlight and thrives without the presence of oxygen or carbon dioxide. They live on the minerals and chemicals and heat coming from fissures in the earth's crust, at significantly higher temperatures and crushing pressures than we ever thought possible, for example. That doesn't smack of evolution-then-adaptation. That smacks of evolution in that environment.

Also consider that we've found bacterial fossils in fragments of comets, for example.

Actually I don't think they have ever found bacteria in asteroids or comets. Do you have a link to that? I don't believe that they have every found anything alive outside of earth. The bacteria in the meteor thing didn't turn out to be true. It would be interesting if they did find it, but to my knowledge I haven't seen anything.
 
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