Americans are pathetic!!
- Thread starter Deepak
- Start date
It includes all areas. Your number for India was only counting the city dwellers, and not the rural population. Or do they not count?Deepak said:
Which begins a whole new rant: If you want to talk backwards and ignorant, we could begin on the whole caste system of India. Not just a social institution, but a religious one. Two for the price of one.
/braces for retort comparing the caste system to slavery in the US
Hey, hey. The caste system although unfair, has its place in india. (speaking as an indian who has never been to india) Quite a bit of our culture and our religion comes from the caste system and how to interact with different groups. As some one living who lives in the US and someone who has lived in Brasil and South Africa. There is an implied caste system both socially and religiosly in these countries. Please do not preach/talk/discuss the problems of India on the caste system, India acknowledges that they have it, wheresas the rest of world ignores theirs.RussSchultz said:
later,
I see. I haven't heard of anybody ritually cleansing themselves if the shadow of black or hispanic person touched them.
While there are social strata in the US, it is not rigidly enforced by popular belief and religious belief. It is more of a continuom than strata, and there are no culturally enforced barriers (excepting the obvious economical ones) to improving oneself on that ladder.
I was lower middle class, now I'm upper middle class. I've got friends who were definate blue collar families, now they're white collar.
Possible for an Indian? Yes. In India? No.
I'm sure its changing, however. But it will be a long while before the social strata breaks down.
While there are social strata in the US, it is not rigidly enforced by popular belief and religious belief. It is more of a continuom than strata, and there are no culturally enforced barriers (excepting the obvious economical ones) to improving oneself on that ladder.
I was lower middle class, now I'm upper middle class. I've got friends who were definate blue collar families, now they're white collar.
Possible for an Indian? Yes. In India? No.
I'm sure its changing, however. But it will be a long while before the social strata breaks down.
Please tell me where this happened. Because I have no knowledge of anyone doing something like this. My wife's practices a version of hinduism where they worship Lord Swaminarayan. The santos (something like a high priest) can not look at women or even be touched by them. I realized this seems ridiculous but many cultures/religions over human history have had notions of what was or wasnt acceptable to do.RussSchultz said:
later,
One explanation as to why this doesnt happen in India is that India is still a society based on agriculture (agrigarian?). The manufacturing, engineering,...., jobs are growing extremely fast, but it is nowhere near what the US or Western Europe enjoy currently. I think within a decade or two, anyone in India will be able to get the job they want with the right experience.RussSchultz said:
later,
http://www.bigeye.com/082601.htmepicstruggle said:
http://geography.ou.edu/courses/1103bw/8-india.htm
http://humanists.net/avijit/article/my_religion_avijit.htm
There's three anecdotes. Search google for more. Are you sure you're indian?
Sorry didnt word it right, they are priests (about 100). Its like a calling. Their requirements are actually quite strict. You have to be a learned man, to even apply. I heard about 1/3 to 1/2 of them have phds. most of the other have masters or completed college. After much training (music, sanscript, religion,poetry,...) you become a santo. At this point you sever you ties to your former life. And one of the vow is not to be in contact with any females.micron said:
ps This is to the best of my knowledge.
later,
Let me chime into this thread. I'm american and I am what you consider a blue-collar worker. This is by choice because I like the outdoors and do not want to sspend my life in an office. However I work and have worked over the years with many ppl. that have run the gamut of education from illiterate to college educated.
We tend to only see what's in the circles we run in. I suspect most ppl. that visit these boards are college educated and don't run around with ppl. that are not or have not atleast attained a measure of affuence. The people I associate with are uneducated and only care about there little world. Most don't know much at politically , geographically , spiritually or philosipically and they don't care . They only focus on improving there little part of the world with little thought of the "big picture".
All ideas of the world and the happenings in it are usually gained from TV. Most ppl. will say the media is propaganda and that the government is corrupt and then 3 seconds later defend things like the wars we've had lately. This seems a strange dichotomy but it is perfectly valid. They parrot thing heard on the media because they have no real basis to form an opinion other than what they've heard , so people repeat cause it's easy.
Ofcourse these are generalizations. However the "average american" is very uneducated , and I beg to differ the assumption that americans know that Kansas City is in Missouri. Statistics I've seen that 65% of americans can't pass a high school geography course which consists of knowing the 50 states and the names of every continent. I don't think Deepak is slamming americans he's just calling a spade a spade.
We tend to only see what's in the circles we run in. I suspect most ppl. that visit these boards are college educated and don't run around with ppl. that are not or have not atleast attained a measure of affuence. The people I associate with are uneducated and only care about there little world. Most don't know much at politically , geographically , spiritually or philosipically and they don't care . They only focus on improving there little part of the world with little thought of the "big picture".
All ideas of the world and the happenings in it are usually gained from TV. Most ppl. will say the media is propaganda and that the government is corrupt and then 3 seconds later defend things like the wars we've had lately. This seems a strange dichotomy but it is perfectly valid. They parrot thing heard on the media because they have no real basis to form an opinion other than what they've heard , so people repeat cause it's easy.
Ofcourse these are generalizations. However the "average american" is very uneducated , and I beg to differ the assumption that americans know that Kansas City is in Missouri. Statistics I've seen that 65% of americans can't pass a high school geography course which consists of knowing the 50 states and the names of every continent. I don't think Deepak is slamming americans he's just calling a spade a spade.
Russ:Look there are examples of atrocities commited against the untouchables, and I dont like it. However things have for the last 50 years (gandhi's time) people have been working to change the perception about how to treat their fellow human beings. How long has the civil rights movement being going on in the US, are there still cases of civil rights abuses (murders or what not). This being the great US, shouldnt we have fixed this "small" problem. See its not so easy, India has to change the culture of 1 billion people.
Change is happening, its just slow.
later,
Change is happening, its just slow.
later,
indio: my problem with what deepak stated, is that he assumes that the rest of the world is better at this. I think most of the world fits in with what you said.
later,
later,
epicstruggle said:
too true... I've heard that (i don't remember where :? ) that 80% of the worlds population have never heard a phone ring. The reality is the vast majority of the world is poor , illiterate, and hungry and I find that sad. I don't wanna get into geo-politics ATM. I will say most ppl. are still in survival mode and don't have the luxaries of geography classes. I think this is another case of the american media portraying us as rich educated and saavy but when reality does meet up with the hype some are disappointed.
Nice of you to put countries in quotation marks, so to you the different european nations don't really deserve being regarded as independent countries, yes? At least not compared to "real" countries like the US. Never mind answering that, its rhetorical. But basically your argument here seems to be that "countries" in e.g. Europe really are little different from "states" in the US of A.DemoCoder said:
Sorry but I don't buy it and frankly, I'm sick of hearing bunk like that. There's a hell of a lot more diference between any of the European countries than there is between US states. Yes, they do have a healthy dose of independence and self-determination as federal states and some cultural differences, I know that, but so do e.g. Bavaria in Germany, Tirol in Austria, Sicily in italy, etc. etc.... You do realize that other countries have federal states too, do you? You do know that inside our tiny unimportant countries over here there are sometimes quite significant cultural differences between different regions too, sometimes dating back hundreds or even thousands of years?
If you want to compare apples to oranges then be my guest, but don't expect anybody to buy it. It sounds like little more than a lame attempt at an excuse. And in the end this argumentation of yours just supports Deepak's (poorly expressed, no offence Deepak) notion that the average American is more ignorant to the world than the average citizen of many other countries. In your case just add "no matter how intelligent he is and how much he has traveled".
At this point let me repeat, I don't believe that "Americans" are pathetic or ignorant in general, at leats not more so than any other people. They might be a bit more ignorant of the rest of the world than people of some other countries, but that is IMO understandbale due to their unique cultural and geographical isolation and independence, which is quite unlike that of any of those other ocuntries.
As for traveling inside the EU, just FYI, the borders are open and have been for years now. There's also this neat little currency known as Euro now, which pretty much means you can (or will soon be able to) pay almost anywehere in continental Europe with the same currency. Nobody even wants to check your passport at the border anymore, its enough to have your ID with you while travling. Language is still a barrier, but english can help you in most situations, especially with younger people. We're growing together, slowly, but that doesn't mean EU = US or EU member country = US state by any stretch of the imagination. Get off that loose train of thought or it may derail, crash and burn some day...
And rightfully so, see above why this statement is ludicrous! It would have to be like this: Someone in Bavaria watching Berlin or Saxon TV is not really that different than someone in California watching New York media, and someone in the UK watching German or French television is not really that different than someone in the US watching Mexican or Canadian media. But someone in the UK watching German or French television is way different than someone in California watching New York media. Claiming anything else is poppycock...
BTW, good post indio! I think what you said applies to pretty much every country though, not only to the US. Maybe we're slightly better at global geography over on this side of the pond, but what diffrence does that really make?
'Most of *American* intellectual capability is imported....immigrants from Europe (post WW2)....then Asia - India/China (Post IT),'
Care to back that up with statistics? Kinda a funny premise regardless, those people are still 'American'. Hell all of Americans are 'imported' so to speak!
If you do a cursory look at the big faculty names in modern major science papers, you see a lot of anglo-saxon last names in the majority in US institutes. if I had to make a guess at the percentage I'd put them first, with Russians a very strong second, followed by Europeans and Asians. India has a small, though significant output of 'geniuses'. They have a great deal of talent that becomes them, particuraly in math and computer science. Especially if you correlate intellectual development with percapita socio-economic status.
Still, there is a good argument IMO, that 'geniuses' rise above any economic shortcomings. It just seems to me to be a truism that has manifested itself over and over throughout history.
Care to back that up with statistics? Kinda a funny premise regardless, those people are still 'American'. Hell all of Americans are 'imported' so to speak!
If you do a cursory look at the big faculty names in modern major science papers, you see a lot of anglo-saxon last names in the majority in US institutes. if I had to make a guess at the percentage I'd put them first, with Russians a very strong second, followed by Europeans and Asians. India has a small, though significant output of 'geniuses'. They have a great deal of talent that becomes them, particuraly in math and computer science. Especially if you correlate intellectual development with percapita socio-economic status.
Still, there is a good argument IMO, that 'geniuses' rise above any economic shortcomings. It just seems to me to be a truism that has manifested itself over and over throughout history.
Gollum said:
Well, since many of these "countries" (Nation States, especially on the continent) were created on the map in the last century, or had their border's redrawn several times since then, I feel justified. Anyway before the US civil war, US states were much more independent entities, so if we want to ignore geographic history, let's throw that in to.
Fact is, someone from the UK that sits a handful of miles across the water from France counts his travel there as travel to a foreign country. Well, if true, then people in in Chicago, Seattle, and new england that travel routinely across the Canadian border, and can get some Canadian TV stations are "world travelers"
I would say that there is larger difference between UK and Italy, or Spain and Norway than there is between the UK, France, and Germany. The differences between those three are like the differences between California, Texas, and New York, modulo language (and in southern california, a huge fraction of people are bilingual anyway). You have differences in political culture (just like California == very left wing, Texas = right wing), and differences in local food (just like NY vs TX) but there are way more similaries than differences, especially in the France/German/Belgium area.
Yes, that's because of the artificial borders that were drawn. But your "states" or provinces, are like our counties. Look, California is the world's fifth largest economy, ahead of France, BTW. You want to compare Bavaria to California? Or Swiss cantons?
No, it supports the notion that Europeans know about other European countries, and count that as "world knowledge", but the average EU member is as profoundly ignorant of Asia and Africa (except for perhaps the French who still have colonial interest there) Let's see someone from the Belgian countryside place Peru or Shenzhen on a map.
I'd be more impressed of knowledge of EU citizens *outside* continental Europe, but I think you will find it lacking.
All just a recent addition. So what? I can travel to most EU countries openly without a visa as well. Meanwhile, for the past century, Americans have had total freedom of movement in the US for 200+ years, hell, before 9/11, flying dosmetic airlines was almost as efficient as getting on a train, with very little checkpoints. Euro still isn't there yet. I didn't get Euros when I was in the UK, I made sure I had pounds.
Never claimed it was strictly equivalent. I just don't buy a French person claiming knowledge of Germany as "world knowledge" Like I said, if so, I get to claim knowledge of Canadian provinces. Someone in Michigan gets to count Toronto as world knowledge.
Only if the language is different. You can get English channels on German TV. Do you think someone in Vancouver watching TV in Montreal is completely different?
I'm not claiming either side is superior. I'm merely claiming that a historical difference in the way borders were drawn and government was administered left Americans mixed together and Europeans separated, both by small distances. The US at one point had large French, Spanish, and English possessions. If the colonies had not revolted, and the US had not bought or annexed those possessions, today, the US landmass would be divided into atleast a French, Spanish, and English speaking part, probably evolving into separate states, like Canada, loyal to difference overseas governments/cultures.
In such a "what-if" scenario, the US would have been more like continent Europe, where a Spanish speaking California would have to watch a French speaking midwesterner or English speaking New Yorker on TV. But those artificial borders were never drawn, and Americans moved about so throughly, that major linguistic and cultural differences have been ironed out over 200 years. Now, a Californian can't count New York as "world knowledge", but had the "what if" scenario happened, he would.
So the differences are thoroughly explainable merely by the situation that Europeans find themselves in, that their neighboring "states" have not mixed with them as thoroughly over 200 years, and they still regard them as "foreign", and they get counted as "knowledge of other peoples and cultures and geography"
But I would hazard to guess that if you picked a guy out of a Irish pub at random and asked him about a truly foreign culture, something fundamentally difference, he wouldn't have a clue. One of the reasons I prefer traveling to Asia is that it is so difference than the EU or US. Frankly, for all the Eurosnobbery that goes on, I simply do not find Europeans all that difference from Americans. They might like to view themselves as culturally superior, I find them the same.
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