AMD: Speculation, Rumors, and Discussion (Archive)

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Less VRMs better cooler and better power delivery and AMD would have a trump card in their hands...Sad how few decisions crew up what could be a really awesome card.
Unfortunately this needs to be balanced by transient response of the inductor dictated by current-storage,heat dissipation, and phase interleaved mode as it provides benefits.

Cheers
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Thats said I am a bit leery of the Pascal 1080/1070 power controller part used UPI uP9511P.
 
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Can someone with an 8GB, 8Gb/s 480 underclock the memory to 7Gb/s and check if the specified power target is still violated?
(And if that has actually any significant impact on performance?)
No core underclock, just the memory, to get it down to the same spec as the 4GB 7Gb/s models which are apparently not exceeding the set power targets (by much).

Possibly we are just seeing a flaw in the power target heuristic. I'm saying heuristic, because apparently the draw isn't measured over a shunt, but only extrapolated. And to me it looks like something wasn't factored in correctly.
 
No core underclock, just the memory, to get it down to the same spec as the 4GB 7Gb/s models which are apparently not exceeding the set power targets (by much).
I'd suspect these use slightly lower memory voltage? It looks like the 8GB/8gbps cards use 1.55V.
 
You would also still need to capture the current draw of the riser and the auxiliary 6-pin connector to be able to answer if it is still over spec, IMO it will be if you just do the memory.
Not much can be said about the 4GB 7GB/s models until they too are also fully measured in same way as PCPer and Tom's Hardware, basic measurement may show that it is at 150W or close to it, but that still does not tell us how the power is distributed, and ideally this needs to be an accurate measurement by using various games and also stressed like they did using Metro Last Light 4K.
That said would be interesting to know the consumption when running AoTS with crazy setting at 1440p and with async compute.

Quite a few state the Metro Last Light 4K is not a realistic load for the 480 as being worst case, but neither Tom's Hardware or PCPer tested a game that can utilise AMD hardware fully such as a DX12 with heavy async compute, or maybe DX12 game with interesting post processing effects such as Quantum Break.
These types of game matter in this context as this seems to be the direction AMD would like to push developers, especially with more post processing effects that aligns well with GCN.
Cheers
 
Obviously, someone saw the need to provide the RX480 with VRMs rated way higher than on the 1080 for instance. Not only has it more phases, but each phase can also provide much higher current. The lowside MOSFETs on each phase of the RX480 provide up to 100A (yes, each phase can do 100A). Reducing the number of phases should actually increase the efficiency of the VRM slightly. No idea why they felt this to be necessary. The VRM is basically on FuryX level.
Might depend on what rating they are using. The part selection would make more sense if they were running at very high temperatures. FINFET temperature inversion may have led them to design for unusually high thermals. How many other thermally sensitive parts are rated beyond spec? The card design makes more sense if you think about a blower pushing air across a GPU at 100C or more before hitting the VRMs.

http://www.mpedram.com/Papers/DTM-FinFET-TempEffeInv-islped14.pdf

I doubt the 14nm process in that paper is exactly what AMD used, but the issues really seems to hit at their potential problems. Point being that would hint at the ideal clocks being around 0.6V@80C by my rough estimation. Especially for the low power modes and they don't seem to be there. I haven't seen anyone testing significantly under 1V. Another complication could be driving memory signals with that low voltage.
 
If my understanding of the last pages is correct the powergate is a configuration mismatch and shouldn't change performance.

I have a hunch that it's an artifact from "boot time calibration" debugging that got through when AMD decided to not enable it on RX480 on launch to achieve the launch dates.
 
950 is the current gen, AFAIK there's no sucessor for it yet, so unless AMD has a psychic this accusation is unwarranted.

That's not how people look at it, even OEM's are already planning for nV's other cards well in advance, things just don't happen lol, things take time.

So when AMD starts using Maxwell 2 as their base, and OEM's see what Pascal can do, and end consumers see it too, they are naturally already thinking how AMD's solution stack up to nV's or how will it stack up to them.
 
If my understanding of the last pages is correct the powergate is a configuration mismatch and shouldn't change performance.

I have a hunch that it's an artifact from "boot time calibration" debugging that got through when AMD decided to not enable it on RX480 on launch to achieve the launch dates.


What would boot time calibration do for power consumption in a runtime environment?
 
Can someone with an 8GB, 8Gb/s 480 underclock the memory to 7Gb/s and check if the specified power target is still violated?
(And if that has actually any significant impact on performance?)
No core underclock, just the memory, to get it down to the same spec as the 4GB 7Gb/s models which are apparently not exceeding the set power targets (by much).
You can't underclock the memory; WattMan doesn't allow it, and 3rd party tools don't yet speak the new power API. And as someone else has already mentioned, there's also the power/voltage issue. This is why AMD gave reviewers the 4GB/7Gbps BIOS for their reference cards, as it was the only proper way to get the memory down to 7Gbps.

That said, power consumption at the wall only shows a few watts difference between the two configurations. So I have reason to doubt that memory frequency alone is the cause.

Quite a few state the Metro Last Light 4K is not a realistic load for the 480 as being worst case, but neither Tom's Hardware or PCPer tested a game that can utilise AMD hardware fully such as a DX12 with heavy async compute, or maybe DX12 game with interesting post processing effects such as Quantum Break.
You'd be surprised what happens to a loaded-down ROP partition. Filling the ALUs won't always get you max power consumption.
 
As we saw in the video the powergate is a real thing, regardless of if it can kill a mobo or not, the pci 6pin is out of spec and part of the core currently is on the pci slot.... I don't believe in magic so I doubt I driver update can fix that. Amd will probably throttle the card to the ground but then you will end of with a card that doesn't have the performance that were advertised.

I was thinking in getting a 480 but now I will wait until the custom cards to see if the price doesn't go too high since all of them will need a custom pcb...

So sad that such a good product ended up like this.

Enviado desde mi HTC One mediante Tapatalk
 
Took a minute to dig through those spec sheets. The board design actually seems logical if you assume low voltage and higher currents from the VRMs. P=IV so cutting the voltage in half doubles the current while keeping power the same. This is a bit simplistic, but gives an idea.
That said, power consumption at the wall only shows a few watts difference between the two configurations.
Going off these numbers the 480 is always attempting to maintain 80C in both Crisis 3 and FurMark. Based on that paper I linked above the card should start out running hot and slow until it reached 80C. Which it appears to be doing rather well. Once that point is reached in theory it would start reducing the voltage while possibly increasing frequencies. That part doesn't appear to be happening reliably. If it did adjust voltages, the whole PCIE issue would likely go away because it would be backing off that power wall. A 40% reduction in voltage with the same frequencies would drastically lower power by nearly two thirds and I doubt frequencies could increase enough to compensate for that.

Yes this seems really backwards from conventional wisdom, but it does make a lot of sense with the design we're seeing. Explains why they have a power heuristic, apparently over-engineered board design, and were marketing power efficiency.
 
Took a minute to dig through those spec sheets. The board design actually seems logical if you assume low voltage and higher currents from the VRMs. P=IV so cutting the voltage in half doubles the current while keeping power the same. This is a bit simplistic, but gives an idea.

Going off these numbers the 480 is always attempting to maintain 80C in both Crisis 3 and FurMark. Based on that paper I linked above the card should start out running hot and slow until it reached 80C. Which it appears to be doing rather well. Once that point is reached in theory it would start reducing the voltage while possibly increasing frequencies. That part doesn't appear to be happening reliably. If it did adjust voltages, the whole PCIE issue would likely go away because it would be backing off that power wall. A 40% reduction in voltage with the same frequencies would drastically lower power by nearly two thirds and I doubt frequencies could increase enough to compensate for that.

Yes this seems really backwards from conventional wisdom, but it does make a lot of sense with the design we're seeing. Explains why they have a power heuristic, apparently over-engineered board design, and were marketing power efficiency.
80C is when the fan ramps up. Until you reach the fan maximum (i.e. how loud you're going to allow it to be), it's not going to back off on frequency due to temperature. I never reached the fan speed maximum in my testing of games, though AMD doesn't have NV's neat API flag that tells you why the card is throttling.

From the RG, which is the most extensive AMD documentation on the matter right now: "[Temperature] target is the temperature before the fan speed is raised to cool down the GPU"
"[Fan] target is [the] maximum fan speed [that] the fan will run at if the temperature level is not above [its] target"
 
I wonder how Geforce 1070 is managing voltage, it also uses 8 Gb/s memory.
Not sure how it handles the voltage, but the power draw is actually measured by the voltage drop over a shunt resistor in the 12V net. So the card can measure the actual board power rather reliably, rather than going by estimations/heuristics.
 
That said, power consumption at the wall only shows a few watts difference between the two configurations. So I have reason to doubt that memory frequency alone is the cause.
Can you quantify how much of that difference is due to possibly lower framerates for the 4-gbds-BIOS'ed card and thus lower system-as-a-whole load?

You'd be surprised what happens to a loaded-down ROP partition. Filling the ALUs won't always get you max power consumption.
To add to that: For maximum power consumption, you need to take into account a couple of things. The different parts of the chip from top to bottom in the pipeline should be doing at least some work to keep them from powering down. While pure compute loads as in Sisoft Sandra do tend to punish the ALUs quite good as well as the internal memory system, actually setting up stuff, drawing a part of it and computing things at the same time often does drive up power harder. There's a fine balance between the higher load on extreme 4K settings and achieving a high Framerate (ROP, Geometry throughput) as well.
 
Can you quantify how much of that difference is due to possibly lower framerates for the 4-gbds-BIOS'ed card and thus lower system-as-a-whole load?
The framerate only differs by ~2% at 1080p, so I'd say a couple of watts on the CPU side, and another couple of watts on the GPU side. FurMark may be more relevant, since it's a cleaner load.
 
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