AMD: Sea Islands R1100 (8*** series) Speculation/ Rumour Thread

[jimbo75]

Yes. What you described were logical reasons for a consumer to select/prefer AMD hardware. There may also be logical reasons for consumers to select/prefer Nvidia hardware. If a consumer decides to buy Nvidia hardware despite the reasons you have listed, then they may have reasons of their own for preferring Nvidia hardware. At no point has an unjust action taken place. There is nothing unfair about a consumer choosing to buy Nvidia hardware despite the reasons you outlined.

And if that consumer makes their decision based on the comment I linked earlier?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/30412

AMD’s high end cards might not win head to head against Nvidia in sheer performance numbers

Is this unfair, unjust? Is it an outright lie from a known Nvidia-sympathising author?

Yep, there are plenty of unjust factors involved in this, which is why I said that at the end of the paragraph (the part you didn't quote).

 

[ninelven]

Is this unfair, unjust?

It is a strawman fallacy.

 

[jimbo75]

It is a strawman fallacy.

AMD offers faster, cheaper cards with a great free game bundle. Certain websites downplay the actual performance characteristics in order to fit their own agenda, ie "good old AMD, cheap and slower". AMD sells less even though they have the clear technological and value advantages. Consumers lose out by paying more for inferior hardware.

If this isn't an injustice in your world, we're not going to get along. You know it's a fact because not once have you tried to deny that AMD holds all the cards here yet is still being undermined by various factors that are extremely difficult to control.

 

[Homeles]

Certain websites downplay the actual performance characteristics in order to fit their own agenda, ie "good old AMD, cheap and slower".

[Citation Needed]

 

[jimbo75]

Just read the linked article and comments Homeles.

 

[ninelven]

If this isn't an injustice in your world, we're not going to get along.

So what you are saying is everyone must base their purchasing decisions upon your morality and preferences, and may not have any of their own. That doesn't sound very just to me. Do I live in the United States of Jimbo75? Perhaps I have the right to life, [strike]liberty[/strike] AMD GPUs, and the pursuit of Jimbo75-approved happiness. I'll pass.

 

[jimbo75]

So what you are saying is everyone must base their purchasing decisions based upon your morality and preferences, and may not have any of their own. That doesn't sound very just to me. Do I live in the United States of Jimbo75? Perhaps I have the right to life, [strike]liberty[/strike] AMD GPUs, and the pursuit of Jimbo75-approved happiness. I'll pass.

No what I'm saying is that this is one of those cases where a company has a superior offering in almost every way (unless you're gonna tell me that top-end enthusiast gpu buyers give a fuck about power draw all of a sudden), yet is not getting their rewards for it.

18 months ago you'd have been saying "it's because they don't advertise, they have no program/dev relations" etc. Now you have absolutely nothing in defence for the reasons why. AMD's graphics division has done everything they can reasonably be expected to do, and yet they have probably had their worse year in a very long time. If it's not media bias or plain brainwashing what is it?

 

[ninelven]

So you are saying there are no valid reasons for choosing Nvidia over AMD currently?

Now you have absolutely nothing in defence for the reasons why.

Let's see, I am on Linux. I currently have an AMD card, so I'm familiar with what you can expect from them currently on Linux. If I were to buy a new card today, it would be Nvidia. But apparently, my choice would anger the gods. Woe is me.

 

[Homeles]

Just read the linked article and comments Homeles.

Fudzilla is not a serious review site.

 

[jimbo75]

So you are saying there are no valid reasons for choosing Nvidia over AMD currently?

Let's see, I am on Linux. I currently have an AMD card, so I'm familiar with what you can expect from them currently on Linux. If I were to buy a new card today, it would be Nvidia. But apparently, my choice would anger the gods. Woe is me.

You and the couple of hundred other people using Linux...somehow I don't think that's going to affect the gpu market share in the way it has recently.

Sure there are reasons not to buy an AMD gpu, but not to the extent that is happening. Why is it happening? Look at the market share and tell me why AMD's superior offerings (under Windows) are losing out.

This is basically what this whole thing is about now. Why would AMD release new cards under these circumstances? They have done *everything* you said was the reason why they couldn't win in the past. They got fastest card out months before the competition, great dev relations, great publicity from the never settle bundle and they *still* lost out.

Fact is, the press is Nvidia friendly and even year after year of losing out to AMD in whatever way AMD chose (fastest card, best perf/watt, fastest gpu) doesn't appear to have diminished the love affair they have with Nvidia. I don't think it's just or fair, no.

 

[ninelven]

You and the couple of hundred other people using Linux...somehow I don't think that's going to affect the gpu market share in the way it has recently.

It was just one example out of an infinite number of possibilities, none any less valid. The point being, you don't know me. You don't know my needs. You don't get to decide what is a good decision for me or any other customer than yourself for that matter.

Why is it happening

AFAICS, you haven't actually provided any reasonable conjecture here.

They have done *everything* you said was the reason why they couldn't win in the past.

Yes, brand building takes time... Just because you put out a great product, don't expect the public to recognize it overnight. And when did I lay out every reason why they were not doing well in the past?

Fact is, the press is Nvidia friendly and even year after year of losing out to AMD in whatever way AMD chose (fastest card, best perf/watt, fastest gpu) doesn't appear to have diminished the love affair they have with Nvidia. I don't think it's just or fair, no.

You have cited all of one example. If we are to base our conclusions upon a sample size of 1, why not take semi-accurate as our source. Oh poor Nvidia, getting victimized by Charlie... .

 

[jimbo75]

I didn't say your point was less valid, I simply stated that it can never account for the loss of market that AMD has suffered.

I agree brand building takes time, however AMD seems to have lost out on brand strength while offering superior gpu products for many years. Sure Nvidia caught up last year - but that's all they did. AMD's reward? To lose out as the tech press clamoured to welcome their old Nvidia overlords back.

If I had to start citing dodgy websites I'd be here all night. I'll just take it as read that your refusal to actually back Kepler vs GCN on technological grounds - or disagree that AMD offers a far superior value proposition - means you understand the situation as much as we all do.

 

[Blazkowicz]

FX-series failure has nothing to do with XBox

Yes.
What the Xbox gave us was nforce chipsets, which were'nt quite a bad thing. Intel closed the door on them (DMI licensing debacle) but they still exist on a few AM3 and AM3+ motherboards, with geforce 7025 and nforce 720d.

 

[gongo]

Slowed technological progress is never a good thing. Stop being selfish.

dont get me wrong..im all for progress..but evidently with no new lineup for the next 9 months, AMD/TSMC/Nvidia may have stumbled onto a roadblock...

AMD could go with 58x -> 69x progress...but is it even possible? In any case, the Cayman main improvements imho comes from the additional tessellation unit and 2GB of ram (and more TMUs for DX9 games)... the unlocking was fun though, are we sure they can afford do such changes to GCN on the same 28nm?

So i am happy they have to focus on driver improvements...seems like they still have some work and legroom on GCN ...games this year will still be held back by 512MB consoles, i dont think outside of high MSAA and resolution, Tahiti will need more speed to achieve 30-60fps....speaking of high resolution, i am waiting for my 1600p monitor...so i guess something about GCN2 is needed....but i can wait until next year.

 

[gongo]

And if that consumer makes their decision based on the comment I linked earlier?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/30412

Is this unfair, unjust? Is it an outright lie from a known Nvidia-sympathising author?

Yep, there are plenty of unjust factors involved in this, which is why I said that at the end of the paragraph (the part you didn't quote).

I also posted a review by some other website....the charts show 7970GE leading the 680 on many games ....but somehow ..in the end, the reviewer's conclusion lead readers to think that the 680 is the faster card....i think it was techspot...i did pointed it out to Dave too...

 

[ninelven]

means you understand the situation as much as we all do.

This statement would appear to imply that we (everyone else) are all constructs of reality as you perceive it. I don't think we need to go any further. We can simply agree to disagree.

 

[silent_guy]

Here's a shocking concept: people buy products based on feelings alone. Clothes, cars, butter, anything really. GPUs aren't different. The performance of one or the other brand may differ 10% in one way or the other, but it's not as if anybody will really notice when playing a game. (They're more likely to notice noise.)

For one reason or other, people simply like Nvidia better. That's not a terrible injustice. That's just people voting with their wallets.

(Along the same line: it's not Nvidia's fault that its main competitor has daft brand names. Nvidia vs. AMD? GeForce vs Radeon?)

 

[DuckThor Evil]

No what I'm saying is that this is one of those cases where a company has a superior offering in almost every way (unless you're gonna tell me that top-end enthusiast gpu buyers give a fuck about power draw all of a sudden), yet is not getting their rewards for it.

Few percentages in raw power is "superior in almost every way" to you? Superior... seriously? And this happened after they released the factory overclocked model, where only 3rd party custom models are operating at sane noise levels. How's the 3D gaming working on AMD cards compared to nVidia? Is that too superior? Drivers on day1 in games, are they superior too?

AMD's graphics division has done everything they can reasonably be expected to do, and yet they have probably had their worse year in a very long time. If it's not media bias or plain brainwashing what is it?

AMD's graphics division operating income calendar year ending:

2011 $51M profit
2012 $105M profit

So instead of it being "probably the worse year in a very long time" they actually more than doubled their operating income compared to the previous year. Isn't that lovely?

Since AMD bought ATI in 2006 and starting with full years from 2007, only 2010 had better profit numbers for their graphics division than 2012, so 2012 was their second best year in terms of profit, but hey don't let stuff like that stop you, it's well established that facts and you don't mix very well.

 

[UniversalTruth]

Here's a shocking concept: people buy products based on feelings alone.

That's only partially true. I mean there are so many people who go to the store and buy something- for example a laptop but they don't give a damn about the graphics card inside. In this case the decision which card is put there is made by external factors which, of course, can be unfair since you know that NV likes to play with money to win others on their side.
And to make matters even worse- I know that NV sells two cards for one from AMD, and that according to Steam GTX 670 alone outsells 7950 and 7970 combined.

But in this case customers slowly kill AMD and in the end they will not have any choice but to buy NV. And NV will like to charge as much as they wish.... I think no one will like it.

 

[DavidGraham]

Some of the reason why people would prefer NVIDIA this generation :

-PhysX
-Image quality : TXAA , Ambient Occlusion
-Better drivers/games support
-Fame

Besides some of the current AMD cards are barely faster than NVIDIA's counterparts , some of the cards are even slower , so the only distinct advantage for AMD in this generation is price .