AMD: Sea Islands R1100 (8*** series) Speculation/ Rumour Thread

Can faster, low latency ram make a difference in benchmark scores in this gen/next gen gpus? IE: Going from DDR3 1333 (C7) > 1600 (C7) > 2133(C9) > 2400 (C10). Albeit I would assume that drivers would play a role if it does.

But, if it's possible that it could effect the scoring would that indicate a bottleneck in the drivers? In other words, should there be no difference regardless of what ram one uses?

Edit:
In CPU limited games. However it would be interested to see GPU limited games as well.
 
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Can faster, low latency ram make a difference in benchmark scores in this gen/next gen gpus? IE: Going from DDR3 1333 (C7) > 1600 (C7) > 2133(C9) > 2400 (C10). Albeit I would assume that drivers would play a role if it does.
on GPUs? it's usually just about the bandwidth, latency is already damn high, I think some AMD opencl optimization paper says you should assume about 500cycles for a global mem read that is not cached. with c7 507 and c9 509.. probably doesn't really matter. yet bandwidth is important.

I'm not sure how that might be related to drivers, do you mean the allocation sheme or... ?
 
on GPUs? it's usually just about the bandwidth, latency is already damn high, I think some AMD opencl optimization paper says you should assume about 500cycles for a global mem read that is not cached. with c7 507 and c9 509.. probably doesn't really matter. yet bandwidth is important.

I'm not sure how that might be related to drivers, do you mean the allocation sheme or... ?


I'm talking how quickly the drivers orchestrate how the data is moved between the cpu/gpu and system memory. I'm wondering if there is any overall performance changes going from drr3 1333 to ddr3 2133 using the same driver, playing the same game/3d11/etc. In particular CPU bound games and/or one that uses a lot of physics.

Some always assume CPU performance when it relates to bottlenecks (when the game is more gpu intensive) but I've always thought it was the drivers which dictated cpu bottlenecks. With that in mind would simply going from 8gig ddr3 1600 in any way impact performance with 8gig ddr3 vs 2133? That's 1 of 2 scenarios I'm thinking of.

The other scenario would be to take an existing game that is well known to be cpu bound and see if there are any changes when going from ddr3 1333 to ddr3 2133. Not just overclocking the ram but different sets of ram. To see if there is any change in min/max/avg (line graph would best illustrate that). If increasing the speed of the ram reveals some positive impact to overall performance what does that say about the drivers for that gpu (working as intended/driver bottleneck/other)?

Perhaps what I'm asking may require a good gpu driver synthetic benchmarking program.
 
Nvidia said, that Kepler supports DX11.1 (at launch), but it wasn't written in any official presentation as far as I remember.
Why wasn't it written? They hide something or something stinks. I don't agree that it is normal.

Because DX11.1 is part of AMDs marketing not envydias ... remember DX10.1 most of thing show there were part of original troublesome R600 and DX10 we had was mostly quick rework to Universal Shaders + Geometry Engine from good old G72. Microsoft really cares zilch about graphics and probably as things are now crumbling we wont see DX11.1 (as it was suppose to be released in early (Feb?) 2011).

The thing will see is probably DX12 or something like that and maybe even with revised Sea Islands. And main performance gain could be get from different DX12 executing engine scheme. Now if we look back at DX11 and HD5900 series we could say that first DX11 that done things as they could be properly ordered was GTX480/470 and then revised HD6800/6900/6600 series. So could it be that HD7000 series is just like GTX600 just best performing DX11 chip that will be created, and DX11.1/DX12 is something that would be properly addressed only in HD8000 series. Microsoft is weird twat and they like things done as they seem to suit them best.


But this time, there's no new process, and Sea Islands is probably not a major architectural overhaul, not so soon after GCN. So the risk factors are quite small, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a launch in October.

There are no obvious reasons except like with Llano's they're intend to deplete stocked hardware and obviously this time will take even longer than any previous release because of insane launch price.

As you nicely argument series and time dates but you seem to forget that early HD5900 launch was necessity to regain DX11 devs popularity. And at their release time prices of those cards were 380USD for HD5870, ("new series nine") HD6970 were released for 370USD (popular HD6950 300USD) and HD7970 carried 550USD price tag at launch time. NTM that even crappy little Cape Verde XT (HD7770) (116mm2) were insanely priced at 160USD and now they only dropped to 110USD (at same price tag on which crippled HD7750 was launched), where it should be priced from the beginning.

I think they also had bigger problems selling overpriced cards, accompanied with traditionally bad AMDs marketing, as many people all those real major performance improvements in HD7900 over HD6900 series oversaw "as just minor upgrades and wait for some major performance overhaul". In the end that could result in releasing newer top-end chips with highly disabled parts to put them just 10%-15% above HD7970 and waiting for competition to catch'em and made them to release fully featuring HD8970 "Core Enabled" versions.

I still didn't saw any HD7990 (aka HD7900X2) official release.
 
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They're not going to release it for windows 7? Wow, talk about needlessly and uselessly fragmenting your market... Thanks microsoft... Kindly go screw yourselves.
 
They'd better, win7 is the world's most common operating system after all and will remain so for years, if not the entirety of win8's practical lifespan unless it (meaning win8) suddenly becomes remarkably popular for some reason (and with a declining PC market that seems unlikely.)
 
I have no idea why they push w8 so desperately. I have the impression that they want anyone to use w8 at all costs and this is very suspicious.
After all they earn money from Windows 7 as well. So, what's the point? Why?
 
Is the problem really transistor size?
Ok, I don't think it's a good idea to resurrect an old scrapped one. Obviously it had been scrapped because it was worse.
Which actually gives an expected result- Bulldozer is slow.
Should have shrunk Thuban and add more speed through frequency increase. (headbang)

Thuban was an already quickly adapted patch of Deneb (C1) core as AMD didn't intend to release undeveloped/scrapped Bulldozer revision w/ SSE5 only in 2009 and probably didn't have money deploy BD at that time. Thuban (E1) share same HT3.1 link developed for BD and improved IMC that was reworked when they also need to link L3 cache to additional two cores. Same improvements were used for server only quad-core D1.

K7-K8-K10-K10.5 were great evolutionary leap forward that brought a lot of nice features (x86-64, IMC, SSE(2,3), Virtualization, L3 cache) But obviously AMD saw that they need huge amount of time to rework that architecture for every "new instruction" implementation and facility improvements that they needed. Front end x86 decoder/dispatcher was simply aged and become non-scalable hot spot in this chips. It worked pretty well if you consider same thing was deployed on 350nm process and accomodate that arch as a good fellow all those years, reaching its apex above 4GHz during overclocking sessions.

While modular approach implemented in BD architecture will shorten amount of rework AMD need to implement Intels NI for which they're always striving even if they innovate better solution but they scrap them in favor of Intels NI (just like they did with SSE5). If they managed to release BD supporting only SSE5 (along SSE4) in 2009 and start new evolution there then they're might be in lot less trouble. They had proven 45nm SOI at their disposal and they could maintain two parallel CPU architectures for some time. After all they did it now with Llano APU & Bulldozer-FX parallel coexistence just in different sockets (market segments).

And as longevity matters, adapted K8 design aka. K10 supports only limited SSE4A (SSE4 excerpt that could benefit current K10 arch), and AMD passed fair amount of troubles with properly implementing SSE3 in K8 rev.E which in every iteration cleaned some bugs. And those AMDs SSE2/SSE3 implementations were never on same speed K8/K10 had when executing MMX (not even mentioning 3DNow!) So AMDs CPU were always regarded as lacking of FPU capability over ALU, and in ALU execution K8 dominated over P6 and Pentium 4 until IPC improvements in Core 2.

Yep K10.5 shrink to 32nm would be great solution, but then you forgot that K10.5 was already fairly improved K10 shrink from 65nm. And that job alone needs some time to be done and AMD already proof that they lack of time and resources.

I think as stated above that AMD should start with smaller BD at 45nm node with 3-modules carrying 1MB L2 cache + 6MB L3 (total 9MB just like Thubans). And they might even gave parallel birth to Thubans. But all those need extra R&D time and cost which AMD's limited budget couldnt support along with their striving to hold GPU market with first DX11 GPU. They simply didnt have enough resources to execute all that work, so as alternative they scrapped BD 45nm and released Thubans in 2010 which were easily composed of available parts they had lying around.

And that size you're referring was about 130nm SOI part which would supposedly be one module, probably not the BD module. And it should serve as original K8 and it should have two threads, probably only 64-bit wide FPU/SSE.per thread. But all things that should be done implementing x86-64, IMC, SSE2 and using SOI for new design. This was just too much and it would probably be delayed further than Spring 2003, just like we saw with BD. And K7 was already reached its 130nm limits and become uncompetitive with new 90nm Prescott and 130nm Northwood was much cooler for same tasks.

So after all that should you really buy shrinked down K10.7 to 32nm that lacks any modern SSE/AVX support, having toughly achievable 6-cores. And what would be price for that product?

It's easily to demand "simple shrink for more performance". Most of users seeking for performance deserted towards more expensive Intel camp, and this "simple shrinkage" gaff would only produce additional cost for AMD in 2011, when they already didn't have strength to do the job in 2009/early 2010 and release simpler version of Bulldozer as scheduled and w/ SSE5 (+SSE4) support. They could easily add up all those features AVX, MADD when moving on 32nm mature production. Just like Intels tick-tocks


Can faster, low latency ram make a difference in benchmark scores in this gen/next gen gpus? IE: Going from DDR3 1333 (C7) > 1600 (C7) > 2133(C9) > 2400 (C10). Albeit I would assume that drivers would play a role if it does.

But, if it's possible that it could effect the scoring would that indicate a bottleneck in the drivers? In other words, should there be no difference regardless of what ram one uses?

IDGI are you referring to GPUs (discrete) or APUs. If youre talking about GPUs they're not that latency dependent itself as CPU is, and latency could be easily masked for graphics tasks.
But if your addressing APU, those GPUs inside them doesnt access memory for themselves but CPU thru its DDR3 IMC. And improving IMC latency and improving L2 cache would help CPU and inherently GPU in APU. And IMC in Bulldozer architecture will be improved only with new core designs. Currently Piledriver didnt brought any over Bulldozer, and Steamroller (BD Gen3) might also not bring any disregarding its 28nm shrink and IMC should be reworked.

"In CPU limited games. However it would be interested to see GPU limited games as well."

There are no such thing. You have what you got.
You could improve one part (GPU) and then improve second (CPU) and switching back and forth improving them.
Its dependent on software design not hardware itself.
If you referring to APU only noticeable gain we'd have by adding that GDDR5 IMC that would communicate with GPU part (aka. SidePort of some part)
 
Suspicious? They are trying to become relevant in a post-PC / PC Plus world.

Mhm, ok, I see. However I don't see how they will overcome customers resistance. You have Android, iOs, Windows 7, all good and with very high probability much better and successful products. ;)

Post PC?!? What is that supposed to mean?

Thanks to @keritto for long and detailed posts. ;)
 
Mhm, ok, I see. However I don't see how they will overcome customers resistance. You have Android, iOs, Windows 7, all good and with very high probability much better and successful products. ;)

Post PC?!? What is that supposed to mean?

Thanks to @keritto for long and detailed posts. ;)

Windows8 has the advantage of the desktop + office + a lot of corporate local net compatibility + even tablets have a keyboard at least as an option
Windows8 pro is even compatible with all the win7 x86/64 software
I don't like it as it looks half baked even in the metro only section, but I can see why many people will buy it.

And Microsoft earns money from the marketplace, and the marketplace is relevant only if they sell many windows8 stuff so that more developers make software and more people buy it
 
Can this be right for the 8800 series?
http://videocardz.com/34981/amd-radeon-hd-8870-and-hd-8850-specifiation-leaked
The die went from 212mm2 to 270mm2 for 600 million more transistors...from that chart.

The best is comment on pricing "There’s a note about January 2013, I’m guessing that’s the release or paper-launch date. Furthermore, we might expect around 22% lower price in comparison to HD 7800 series."

First AMD skyrocket prices of whole HD7000 series and now when they normalizing it to more sane levels they calling it price reduction :LOL: That point out how both HD7000 and GTX600 series had insane pricing.

At least Oland chip size which whooped for 25% over HD7800 (Pitcairn) could account for those prices now and are now are closer to 40nm GPU price levels. And these cards carrying 6Gbps GDDR5 memory (1500MHz) just like HD7970 did which is great compared to 4.8Gbps GDDR5 specs HD7870 had.


AMD released their mid-range first with Barts before Cayman.

Exactly. When the times like this came that they should fight with mainstream cards against mainstream competition (GK104) .... which is insanely priced 550USD mainstream card. Same was when Barts should address GTX460. Because selling 384b PCB(HD7950) for 250USD isnt good marketing strategy. And card resellers dislike to work with zero-profit margins.
latest prices These HD7850 1GB vs 2GB SKU is more of 20 bucks where i live its more like 50€ difference (incl tax its 215$ vs 275$)


How about blaming TSMC and its equipment suppliers (by the way, these equipment suppliers by themselves are also a very intriguing topic for discussion because of their demand for ever growing in exponential manner prices) for the insane wafer pricing?

It aint the whole truth that stories AMD told us about skyrocket of wafer prices. And how the prices should keep on doubling for every smaller node after 40nm.

TSMC probably feel themselves confident enough to ask their most faithful customers which rely on their most advanced nodes, like ATi & nvidia, to relief them of some burdens of 28nm transition as they didnt have premiums on canceled 32nm process, and they had another Fab to build for 32/28nm production. So its more likely AMD/ATi told deceiving story just to hide their agreement with TSMC to help TSMC in this 28nm transition just like TSMC favor ATi in the past with exclusivity on 55nm node when cumbersome R600 arch needed cheapest manufacturing as possible to stay competent. So they feel they need to repeat TSMC story and also knowing how much desktop market changed in the last four years. I believe AMD made a wonderful job selling CapeVerde at those premium prices as there the widely used in most notebooks after GT640.

And afterwards nvidia just followed ATi's pricing rules when they had small enough GK104 chip that could compete with AMDs top end and which could made them extra profits they lost for the most part during early Ferminator failure.
 
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If you're referring to GT200, that was the 65nm node. As we get smaller, nodes get more problematic and it takes longer for them to mature. Isn't it logical that after Fermi Nvidia would not make the same mistake and play it safe?

Its not that nodes jumps become more problematic, but more likely that wide range of node shrinks 130/110nm-90/80nm-65/55nm shared almost identical equipment while 45/40nm and (32)/28nm had to use different equipment. And beyond that, 28nm implementation is complicated because it was new design approach for TSMC, same thing it was 32nm HKMG-SOI for GloFo.

And GPU manufacturers traditionally cramp as much transistors as possible so they're the first ones that needs to explore new manufacturing processes anyway. And yet their dies must be huge when they're striving for 25%-50% performance improvement in every new generation of their chips.

Other than that is just envidias motto "Who should we blame this time" (Well they should blame themselves but thy don't do that do they?)

Fermi was not such a blast because of 40nm node as it was for being new design from the scrap after NV40-G71-G80-GT200 evolutionary steps. All it had common with previous dx10 chips were unified shaders but these need to support new CUDA implementation. Same thing happened with prolong delays of Bulldozer, if we would draw a lines between those two. Its totally new chip idea implemented on what were yet unexplored node opportunities for the company (we could reject those GT21x done on 40nm before because those was rather tiny chips and architecture was something that traces back to 2005) Instead they should look after intels tick-tock model.

No it isn't. AMD can't move to 20 nm any sooner than Nvidia. Just based on rumored specs, it will almost certainly outperform the HD8970 or whatever it ends up being called. Of course, GK110 will have a larger die, so that is to be expected.

I wouldn't be so sure about it.

GK110 (or whatever is called) might outperform HD7970 in SP matters but when it came to DP it wouldn't surpass Tahiti they migh hold a tie or it could actually underperform that a 1-1.5yr old design. And for sure GK110 will be one damn hot chip. Maybe not on levels of epically hot furnace Ferminator, but with much higher TDP than Tahiti XT and probably AMD's "next generation" HD8970 (Venus/we) would have same SP performance as GK110 just within 15-20% lower TDP

You shouldn't judge GK110 performance on GK104 what was damn good evolutionary chip based on GF104/114 and they share near the same TDP

That consoles will use 9000 series, this is, volcanic islands!

LOL consoles dont need such a power as you propose. Even SI2 aka. Sea Islands would be too much for XBOX720.

Most of consoles came out with few gen old designs, and X720 will probably feature Steamroller based Kabini APU which GPU is based on already available GCN Gen.1 architecture aka. Southern Islands. It has everything MS needs for their box, even cool Zero-Core feature :D. and that's probably why we saw so hastily deployment of DX11.1 which is just a minor update but it probably carries a lot of features M$ wanted for their console API should have.

And beside for VI (GCN Gen.3) we need to see 20nm process to be readily available and thats at least two more years to become widely adopted (late 2014) which almost makes time for NextGen consoles appear. As ATi proposed 3yr lifespan of their GPU and they stick to it. So why should consoles would do any better?
 
LOL consoles dont need such a power as you propose. Even SI2 aka. Sea Islands would be too much for XBOX720.

That's exactly the reason why FarCry 3 looks so underwhelming when you play it on old scrapped hardware in current 5-6 year-old consoldes.


It's a matter of time I guess. Unfortunately, I don't hear or see anything about upcoming Service Pack 2 with DirectX 11.1 for Windows 7. I (too) am not going to use that awful in my eyes w8, that's it.
 
K7-K8-K10-K10.5 were great evolutionary leap forward that brought a lot of nice features (x86-64, IMC, SSE(2,3), Virtualization, L3 cache) But obviously AMD saw that they need huge amount of time to rework that architecture for every "new instruction" implementation and facility improvements that they needed. Front end x86 decoder/dispatcher was simply aged and become non-scalable hot spot in this chips. It worked pretty well if you consider same thing was deployed on 350nm process and accomodate that arch as a good fellow all those years, reaching its apex above 4GHz during overclocking sessions.
Instructions in and of themselves are comparatively cheap to implement, as long as they don't wildly change the behavior of the processor. A few extra media instructions are not what AMD was spending all its time trying to implement.

The more fundamental problem is that K7 was architected to match the properties of silicon at nodes that existed a decade ago. The assumptions and tradeoffs of that time do not match the realities of now. Wire scaling has dropped severely, voltage scaling is severely constrained, variability is one of the greatest threats to manufacturability, and the engineering effort to get anything working at a new node is much higher.
AMD showed the massive disparity in switching power and clock gating between an old design and BD. At some point, the decisions and legacy of a reused pipeline become prohibitive, and it could be argued AMD hit that limit several nodes ago.

Llano was a design that was supposed to be a power-efficient version of Phenom at 32nm.
While there were complications that muddy the waters a bit, it should be noted that this power-efficient quad-core solution had SKUs that could smack into a 100W TDP barrier without a GPU with the barest turbo hop above 3 GHz.
This is turbo Llano could barely maintain for a few milliseconds.

AMD still has a problem with some kind of clock or power wall with Bulldozer, though it's 30% higher.

If they managed to release BD supporting only SSE5 (along SSE4) in 2009 and start new evolution there then they're might be in lot less trouble.
I don't find this argument compelling. AMD could never bet any kind of success on ISA changes when the only real party in the driver's seat is Intel. Once, and only once, did that change.
That, and SSE5 is far uglier and in many or most aspects inferior to AVX.
Why? Because AVX was Intel's extension, and Intel is allowed to make more fundamental changes to semantics because whatever Intel says is the direction of x86 goes. SSE5 is uglier and hackier because it had to go by already established operand and instruction behaviors Intel decided to remove.


Post PC?!? What is that supposed to mean?

The direction a huge portion of consumer spending is going towards is consumption devices that are portals to vertically integrated hardware and media platforms.
The money isn't made on the hardware, but on everything else on having the consumer dependent on the consumption device.
The PC used to be this portal, but it is comparatively clunky and difficult to monetize because it isn't controlled. Components cost more because they have to have their own profit margins, and the machines they go into can connect out and buy products from just about anybody.
The thing is that most users are consumers, and for their use model almost everything about a PC is extraneous and extra expensive. That doesn't mean other uses the PC is still needed for such as content creation or business suddenly stop being relevant, but a lot of that money that went to PCs because no other devices offered quite the same consumption options no longer goes there.

The question is whether AMD is struggling to remain afloat and somehow relevant long enough for some large conglomerate to make it part of a vertically integrated empire.
The threat to Intel's x86-based dominance in so many consumer-facing fields in future computing is actually business-related, not technical. This harkens back to how x86 won out over many demonstrably superior solutions in its history. Can even Intel maintain the treadmill when the growth curve in selling components of media portals doesn't provide the kind of war chest that owning the consumers' viewing and consumption portals does? There's still the massive growth in server-side computing it can rely on, so it's not like Intel can't benefit from this change, unless other vertically integrated media device/service players decide to become more vertical.
It's also a question I think any silicon design or manufacturing company must ask itself, since two big players in this future don't mind pulling the silicon portion in-house in the pursuit of more influence in monetizing consumers.

GK110 (or whatever is called) might outperform HD7970 in SP matters but when it came to DP it wouldn't surpass Tahiti they migh hold a tie or it could actually underperform that a 1-1.5yr old design.
Which variation on GK110 or Tahiti are you using?
If not the GHz edition, at least some of the clock/SMX combinations for GK110 have it winning DP and losing SP.
 
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The best is comment on pricing "There’s a note about January 2013, I’m guessing that’s the release or paper-launch date. Furthermore, we might expect around 22% lower price in comparison to HD 7800 series."

First AMD skyrocket prices of whole HD7000 series and now when they normalizing it to more sane levels they calling it price reduction :LOL: That point out how both HD7000 and GTX600 series had insane pricing.

Really? And yet GTX 280 (650 USD), GTX 480 (499 USD), and GTX 580 (499 USD) all launched at higher or similar prices to GTX 680 (499 USD) and Radeon 7970 (549 USD). If not for the Radeon 4870, the GTX 280 never would not have been reduced in price. And it's quite likely the GTX 480 and 580 would have launched at 649 USD or higher if not for the Radeon 4870 and later Radeon 5870.

I think AMD's potential mistake was thinking that GTX 680 would use GK110 (scratched as unfeasible) and that it would be priced higher than GTX 580 was.

Either way, AMD ended up with greater than 2.5 months of 7970 being either sold out or selling at very close to manufacturing supply. Which means demand during that time either outstripped their ability to produce 7970's or as time went on, demand eventually normalized to their ability to supply chips/cards.

GTX 680 launched at a lower price and immediately went into insufficient supply mode at 499 USD. Supply didn't catch up for at least 4-8 weeks after launch. Sure supply was better in the EU, but then purchasing has been softening in the EU for the past year as they deal with the economic problems of the various member states, so that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Both of those launches illustrate quite well that there was ample demand for enthusiast cards at the 499 USD and 549 USD price points. Otherwise supply would have been far greater than demand. Pricing either of those cards any lower and both AMD and Nvidia would have lost money in comparison.

It isn't like they could have moved more cards at a lower price point. They were already selling every single card they could manufacture. It can even be argued that Nvidia "lost" money by not pricing the GTX higher. At 549 they quite likely would have still sold out every single card that was made for 4-8 weeks after launch.

It'll be interesting to see what Sea Islands or C Islands or whatever the next series of chips is called ends up being. Are they going back to smaller dies? Cutting out DP for consumer as Nvidia did with GK104? And just making a more performant variation of the 7870 and moving that into the top consumer spot? Or are they going to continue with larger dies with greater compute capability like 7970 and hoping that Nvidia hasn't decided that 1x4 type GPUS will comprise the top end consumer chips?

As GTX 680 showed, consumers currently don't care for compute capabilities. A ramped up Pitcairn would potentially have been a far better competitor to GTX 680, for example. If the decide to use a Pitcairn variant rather than a Tahiti variant for the enthusiast class 8xxx card, they could be in a better position to winning the gaming performance crown. On the other hand they could potentially lose the compute performance crown if GK110 ends up as the top enthusiast chip. Then again a ramped up Pitcairn variant might also be cheaper to produce and faster (in gaming workloads) than a ramped up Tahiti variant, allowing for lower cost cards.

Personally, I'd like to see lower pricing. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Regards,
SB
 
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