AMD Mantle API [updating]
- Thread starter MarkoIt
- Start date
I haven't read the article, but I assume he's talking about nvidia's bindless ogl extensions (a different way to tackle the same problem). But I don't know of any game that utilizes these extensions. AMD supports blindless too.
It is a huge issue. Due to the growth in ultra mobile computing, there is more competition in the GPU space today than there ever has been in a long time. Do you believe that NVIDIA, Intel, Qualcomm, ImgTech, ARM, Vivante, etc. should all pursue IHV-specific graphics API's? Are you insinuating that AMD, NVIDIA, and "maybe" Intel deserve to have separate rendering paths, while the rest of the IHV's in the world are left in the cold?
Why shouldn't they? AMD put in the legwork, gave the devs what they asked for. If Mantle can increase performance by enough that it matters then they deserve to reap the rewards of that. If not, none of the rest need to worry about making their own and can simply remain in the slower but not-too-slow lane.
And here's an idea - maybe Intel could start spending some of their node advantage on making bigger GPU's, and Nvidia could leverage their "special relationship" with TSMC to get cheaper wafers like they did for years in the past. Did they care about having an unfair advantage over AMD then? No, so why the fuck should AMD care about their disadvantage now? This is business, Mantle will live or die by it's worth and crying "unfair!" doesn't win you anything.
It isn't good to have Intel dominating CPU sales and increasing margins at the cost of progress just because they have a node advantage that AMD can never match.
It isn't good for the user that Nvidia can charge $100 more for a 770 which is basically equal to the 280X, all because they paid more money on advertising in the past.
So it's not good for AMD to have made a huge software advantage for themselves - which was asked for by the devs - doesn't hobble the competition and simply increases performance and IQ to the benefit of gamers?
That looks like a much nicer 3rd option for "users" to me. You could always just, you know, buy an AMD card for $100 less then reap the rewards of Mantle in future.
You'd be surprised at how little you cared about the plight of poor unfortunate little Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm etc after that.
By all means argue about Mantle on it's worth to gamers, but this whining over it being proprietary or harming the industry or hurting the poor little guys? Give me a break, none of those who are making these noises cared about any of that a month ago when it still suited them.
It isn't good for the user that Nvidia can charge $100 more for a 770 which is basically equal to the 280X, all because they paid more money on advertising in the past.
So it's not good for AMD to have made a huge software advantage for themselves - which was asked for by the devs - doesn't hobble the competition and simply increases performance and IQ to the benefit of gamers?
That looks like a much nicer 3rd option for "users" to me. You could always just, you know, buy an AMD card for $100 less then reap the rewards of Mantle in future.
You'd be surprised at how little you cared about the plight of poor unfortunate little Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm etc after that.By all means argue about Mantle on it's worth to gamers, but this whining over it being proprietary or harming the industry or hurting the poor little guys? Give me a break, none of those who are making these noises cared about any of that a month ago when it still suited them.
I'm an Nvidia gamer and I think Mantles awesome! It gives AMD a competitive advantage (which is sorely needs) and it gets the rest of the industry thinking about how it can address the inefficiencies of our current API's. As exciting as Mantle is though I'm even more excited about TrueAudio. I really hope that taked off and either it or something similar become industry standards.
It is a big issue only in your head for now there are only a major company that seems interested by Mantle. It is quite a stretch to think that all PC games are to support it begin with and it is purely scifi to think the Qualcomm, PowerVR, etc would push IHV specific ISA, the state of the mobile market is such that they have few intensives in pushing good drivers out to begin with.
There only a couple of benchmarks in the mobile realm, and I would bet that cheating/crazy optimizations in those couples of benchmarks is the name of the game.
Now if Nvidia and AMD (when they push ARM SOC to market) leverage whatever they have (mantle and proprietary extensions) I won't complain if allows for better games.
Imo the primary concern of the other IHV should be their drivers we saw how tough it was for Intel to catch up. It is a competitive market, AMD and Nvidia have healthy advantages vs competitor when it comes to software they would be stupid to pass.
By the way with Logan getting close to the ps360 I would be surprised if Nvidia does not leverage its TWIMTBP program and have a few exclusives leveraging their proprietary extensions. They would be dumb not to do it.
It is competitive market, AMD, Nvidia, the others they do whatever they want, show case their strength, costumers will decide what fit them best.
I think that initiative like Mantle could do even more good in the mobile world where computing resource are more scares. Ultimately I find it misplaced to attack be it Nvidia or AMD when the ball is actually in the camp of kronos and MSFT to make things better.
As for not liking Mantle, well I think it is too early to say, if it enables greater performances I don't see what there is to dislike. There are no titles that are to be exclusive to AMD, just people owning GCN GPU will have better frame rate, that is it.
That is pretty much the same with the last rendition of GRID on Intel cards, or PhysX games. Nothing to see here.
Imo Nvidia and its fans should have other concerns, in the PC world in the upcoming years I expect APU to take more and more shares that is to hurt Nvidia which can't compete in the x86.
Nvidia should be more interested in pushing PC games on mobile OS where they can provide all in one solution. Actually they do, they don't give up on the shield project, I expect them to do something wrt Steam OS so it can run on ARM, etc.
The thing is well, it is a competitive market there is no such a thing as low blows, just success and failures.
There only a couple of benchmarks in the mobile realm, and I would bet that cheating/crazy optimizations in those couples of benchmarks is the name of the game.
Now if Nvidia and AMD (when they push ARM SOC to market) leverage whatever they have (mantle and proprietary extensions) I won't complain if allows for better games.
Imo the primary concern of the other IHV should be their drivers we saw how tough it was for Intel to catch up. It is a competitive market, AMD and Nvidia have healthy advantages vs competitor when it comes to software they would be stupid to pass.
By the way with Logan getting close to the ps360 I would be surprised if Nvidia does not leverage its TWIMTBP program and have a few exclusives leveraging their proprietary extensions. They would be dumb not to do it.
It is competitive market, AMD, Nvidia, the others they do whatever they want, show case their strength, costumers will decide what fit them best.
I think that initiative like Mantle could do even more good in the mobile world where computing resource are more scares. Ultimately I find it misplaced to attack be it Nvidia or AMD when the ball is actually in the camp of kronos and MSFT to make things better.
As for not liking Mantle, well I think it is too early to say, if it enables greater performances I don't see what there is to dislike. There are no titles that are to be exclusive to AMD, just people owning GCN GPU will have better frame rate, that is it.
That is pretty much the same with the last rendition of GRID on Intel cards, or PhysX games. Nothing to see here.
Imo Nvidia and its fans should have other concerns, in the PC world in the upcoming years I expect APU to take more and more shares that is to hurt Nvidia which can't compete in the x86.
Nvidia should be more interested in pushing PC games on mobile OS where they can provide all in one solution. Actually they do, they don't give up on the shield project, I expect them to do something wrt Steam OS so it can run on ARM, etc.
The thing is well, it is a competitive market there is no such a thing as low blows, just success and failures.
We've had our disagreements in the past pjb, but you "get it". AMD needs this so badly right now as you say. We can worry about them harming the industry and monopolising if and when they get themselves anywhere near a position that they could do it. They are a very long way from doing that right now - even with the console wins and Mantle.
That's a great point but it'll be lost on the Nvidia guys who can't see past AMD as the threat - all the while their lunch is being eaten by Qualcomm, and even Intel now in PC's. It should be clear to anyone that neither AMD or Nvidia has much of a chance of competing with these giants on a hardware or financial footing, but software is a different matter.
That Johan guy is a douchebag though, be wary of what he says.
Well no, AMD didn't "give the devs what they asked for". Game developers would like to see the evolution of industry standard API's such as DirectX and OpenGL to better accomodate modern-day GPU/CPU architecture feature sets. Game developers would not like to see the propagation of IHV-specific graphics API's (and this includes Johan @ DICE). Mantle is an IHV-specific graphics API, so it is definitely not a long-term target for game developers (and in fact, it is not a short-term target for most game developers either, including Carmack and Sweeney, due to it's hardware-restrictive nature).
Uhm no, I would like to see innovation in the PC graphics space again and for that not to be a constant bottleneck so I've been asking for this for years. And we are willing to invest serious dev effort and work closely with a vendor develop an API to significantly improve the situation, initially only for that specific vendor but in the mid/long term for the entire industry (in whatever shape or form that will take).
Though that does not mean that I would like to see 4-5 different vendor-specific graphics APIs in the future nor that every vendor will create their own APIs.
firstminion
Newcomer
Yeah, I know. That good for nothing guy is just a blessing for the salt industry, pinches of salt everywhere.
Well, you could just ask Repi.
EDIT: Ooops, he already responded.
gamervivek
Regular
what about crytek?
Dominik D
Regular
"Other get more than me so I don't like it" is not anti-consumer on the dev side, it's fanboyism on the consumer side. Competition is good and squeezing more from some HW is good for the industry, not bad. Reasoning otherwise is completely backwards.
Well, ams is reading this as "repi doesn't want any proprietary API":
So, yeah.
Last edited by a moderator:
I dunno, he seemed to handle being asked about Mantle at an Nvidia conference pretty well Well played sir!I know you may not be able to answer this so just ignore if not but is there any possibility that BF4 will support TrueAudio? And if not can you give us an indication as to why?