AMD 4x4 Motherboard Details Unveiled

its to appeal to what i will meanly call idiot consumers with too much money. Looks tough, something like the MOSFET cooling on the Abit-Fatality (and others) boards which usually doesnt effect a damn thing. They will be using FX processors as well so that means unlocked multiplyer and lots of fun. I dont think there are many waterblocks out for Socket F.

I was pleased at least reading that they will pair the chips and i'm also happy they're not gouging. Current FX processors are still way too expensive and the kentsfield EE is suffering from basically no supply and very high demand causing prices anywhere from $1100-$1600.

Intels quad core will absolutly beat this is power consumption considering they're going to be 45nm based and not to mention a real single die with a unified 6mb cache. AMD is just starting on 65nm and it looks like this quad core launch will just miss it for the initial processors.

The one thing that i personally find unappealing is that since the processors are still 90nm based, they are going to be basically maxed out at 3GHz where as the Intel ones usually have a substantial amount left to play with. So for someone looking for performance by overclocking this is going to be a pretty poor choice. Maybe 65nm will improve things.
 
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I was pleased at least reading that they will pair the chips and i'm also happy they're not gouging. Current FX processors are still way too expensive and the kentsfield EE is suffering from basically no supply and very high demand causing prices anywhere from $1100-$1600.

Gouging is done by the retailers and you can bet AMD won't be too keen to put out massive of chips when they can sell for twice as much as Opterons....
Here in the UK its fairly easy to find a QX6700 with just a small price premium over the X6800

Intels quad core will absolutly beat this is power consumption considering they're going to be 45nm based and not to mention a real single die with a unified 6mb cache. AMD is just starting on 65nm and it looks like this quad core launch will just miss it for the initial processors.

I believe the 45nm Core 2 Quad will still be a dual die implementation, with 2 x 6MB L2, its not until the Nehelam architecture that they are moving to a single die quad core (and dual dice octo-core).
 
In the case of the FX-62 i dont believe its the retailers that are asking for what they are when Conroe processors half the price outperforms it. Its just AMDs cost because they're more expensive to bin and what the retailers are paying, i really doubt they're selling well.

I'll be a little surprised if the 45nm version isnt true quad based on the fact that the projected cache is cut to 6mb from the current 8mb which would be a little strange considering its going to be using the smaller process.

The other problem with what your saying is Intels release roadmap got moved up entirely so we're also looking at indications that Intel will be releasing Penryn based quad and more importantly octo core processors just before Nehalem takes over, and i dont see them doing that without having a single die quad core chip which i believe ridgefield to be. Oh and we're also staring an FSB boost in the face for the next intel chipset which would make absolutly zero sense in the desktop area currently since its not saturated even with kentsfield. The FSB increase could be to help native quadcore as well as octo-core processors, which again are going to be released next year. I just dont see Intel wiring cores together for over a year like you're saying, its not their style.

And finally, i dont think they will be over-taken by AMD who is also going to be releasing this mid 07. Intel letting AMD brag that they have the only true quad core processor for a year? I dont think so.

6f7d67b313c3655f37c99337f35c47f4.jpg


So yes, i do believe we can expect 45nm to bring an Intel single die quad core chip next year.
 
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I'll be a little surprised if the 45nm version isnt true quad based on the fact that the projected cache is cut to 6mb from the current 8mb which would be a little strange considering its going to be using the smaller process.

No, L2 cache would rise from 4MB to 6MB on the dual cores and from 2 x 4MB to 2 x 6MB on the quad cores.....

Intels current strategy is to do a direct shrink (or near enough, L2 cache is in relative terms a trivial addition and the SSE4 instructions could be being achived by tweaking the Micro Ops or enabling existing silicon that wasn't validated in time for Conroe since it was pulled in a couple quarters) to a new process technology as it enables them to work on perfecting it from a known base. Nehalem will follow a year later. Just look at the nightmare that came about from the massive changes in the Prescott core compared to Northwood and the maturing 90nm process.

20066821610516.jpg


Creating a natively quad core chip means having to rework the L2 cache since you now have 4 cores accessing it and if you are going to sit 2 pairs of cores on a single die to avoid this redesign then why have them on a single die?
Look at the transistion from 90nm to 65nm and they actually SPLIT the cores of the Pentium D, I'm not suggesting they're are about to make Core 2 into a single core as it would be detrimental and unnecessary, but having the a pair of dice on a single substraite offers advantages such as including improved yields and more flexibility in production (suddenly finding massive demand for quad core, no problem just start packaging more together as a pair).

Lets face it, AMD can argue about 'true' quad core all they like, at the end of the day it all smacks a bit of desperation. I'm not going to go "Well, the Intel is faster but the AMD chip is a single piece of silicon so I'll buy that" :rolleyes:

As for octo-core, well if you are going to go two sockets then Intel can sell you one of those already.

Oh and we're also staring an FSB boost in the face for the next intel chipset which would make absolutly zero sense in the desktop area currently since its not saturated even with kentsfield. The FSB increase could be to help native quadcore as well as octo-core processors, which again are going to be released next year. I just dont see Intel wiring cores together for over a year like you're saying, its not their style.

In some applications Kentsfield benefits quite a lot from a 1333FSB actually, and a native quad core would have less of a dependancy (assuming the same clock speed and cache shared between all four cores) as there would be no traffic hitting the FSB for cache coheriency.
 
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Part of me feels like calling foul on the reviews, they seem remarkably sparse and all strangely positive, or at least not negative. The only review that actually seems honest is Anandtechs and personally I think Anands done a very good job there.

Its almost as if AMD had exerted some pressure to minimise bad press, because when you look at it really there is remarkably little positive to say.

The FX-74 is a power hog, performance is at best on a par with QX6700 and in games generally a fair way behind, and as shown in the Anandtech review ONE FX-74 CPU is actually faster in some applications than TWO due to the increase in memory latency from having to traverse a HT link and access the other CPU's memory, yet Kentsfield takes practically no performance hit at all. So much for FSB being a limiting factor....

HardOCP's review is a joke. The slating they are taking in there own forums is proof of that, and I thought it was November not April.

To cap things off the whole thing isn't even for sale until January.
 
I yawn at FX4x4.

But that's because I've got a dell 490 with 2xC2Q's coming in a few weeks for work.
 
I expected 4x4 to do better with tasks that could utilize the increased raw bandwidth that two sockets provided, but it seems the cores are running out of steam before the memory subsystem.

At least in part the lousy showing is due to XP's being non-NUMA aware, but overall it looks like K8 can't use all that bandwidth and the latency for coherence checks is non-trivial. The nice thing about shared FSBs is that snooping can be done pretty much instantaneously.

If it were truly quad cores in each socket with an OS that was more capable, perhaps things would be different in some applications.

Too bad AMD isn't likely to be able to manage to make many real quad cores until Intel's refresh comes out on the next process node.
 
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Part of me feels like calling foul on the reviews, they seem remarkably sparse and all strangely positive, or at least not negative. The only review that actually seems honest is Anandtechs and personally I think Anands done a very good job there.

Its almost as if AMD had exerted some pressure to minimise bad press, because when you look at it really there is remarkably little positive to say.

The FX-74 is a power hog, performance is at best on a par with QX6700 and in games generally a fair way behind, and as shown in the Anandtech review ONE FX-74 CPU is actually faster in some applications than TWO due to the increase in memory latency from having to traverse a HT link and access the other CPU's memory, yet Kentsfield takes practically no performance hit at all. So much for FSB being a limiting factor....

HardOCP's review is a joke. The slating they are taking in there own forums is proof of that, and I thought it was November not April.

To cap things off the whole thing isn't even for sale until January.

Cost is a rather decent positive for anyone who needs the four physical processors when compared to current Intel offerings, i think thats what is saving them at the moment. The promise of having K8L quad core support as well is a positive. I was and still am not too enthusastic about this platform but its there so i have to be objective. Kentsfield is just far too expensive right now for any server needs.

As far as gaming goes, i really have to laugh. Anyone willing to spend all the money is problably going to be pretty much GPU limited 99% of the time meaning they may as well be running 2ghz Athlons against 3Ghz kentsfields. Showing me how fast conroe is at Unreal tournament and how it can do 80frames more, or how well it can run fear in low settings and generally a low res isnt really interesting.

Once we get games that are quite a bit more multi-threaded then that will problably shut my trap, but right now the processor isnt doing enough in modern games when paired with a single card or even two cards and very high res.
 
Cost is a rather decent positive for anyone who needs the four physical processors when compared to current Intel offerings, i think thats what is saving them at the moment. The promise of having K8L quad core support as well is a positive. I was and still am not too enthusastic about this platform but its there so i have to be objective. Kentsfield is just far too expensive right now for any server needs.

I see cost as being a big negative, when you look at the overall system. The only maker of motherboards for it is Asus. Their motherboard sells for $409 on Newegg ($200+ more than an Intel QX capable board). With the insane power draw of the system, you also need to spend even more on a new PSU ($100+ more than an Intel QX capable psu). That right there is an extra cost of $300 - $400.
 
I see cost as being a big negative, when you look at the overall system. The only maker of motherboards for it is Asus. Their motherboard sells for $409 on Newegg ($200+ more than an Intel QX capable board). With the insane power draw of the system, you also need to spend even more on a new PSU ($100+ more than an Intel QX capable psu). That right there is an extra cost of $300 - $400.

Motherboard price gouging is to be expected on any new product, especially when there is only one vender (again i cannot stand asus so this is doubly hard for me to defend). The cost of the board is suppose to settle at around $250-$300US. The only thing comparable to in expandability it would be the nVidia 680i chipset which has a shot at supporting Q2/Q3 07 Intel processors as well as SLI+physics. Those boards are around $250US i think.

Theres also the problem of this current highway robbery.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115011

The Power supply argument is kinda moot since any new computer, be it QX based or FX server socket based is going to need a good supply to begin with. Cant run modern and future SLI or the hundred and one HDDs the boards can support without a good power supply. It is a big difference, but if you have enough money to go one way or the other, the extra 200 for one of the new 900-1000Watt PSUs isnt going to break your heart.

Dont forget we're still waiting on the 65nm process from AMD which should help this rather large negative a bit.
 
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Last test/graph on this page is quite interesting:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-quad-fx_12.html

Jawed

It looks like Kentsfield is able to utilize its lesser bandwidth more efficiently, which makes sense with the superior caches and improved prefetchers.

Since better utilization can't create bandwidth where there isn't any, it leads to more rapid fall-off when those bonuses are overwhelmed and raw bandwidth becomes necessary.

The 4x4 degrades more gracefuly, but it's at a lower point to begin with.

Perhaps in most other situations, the K8 cores choke before the bandwidth advantage comes into play, or the initial penalty is so great that Intel's offerings don't degrade enough to fall below what 4x4 can offer.

Perhaps if the tests were run to the point that the memory bus was even more heavily loaded, we'd see more wins, but at frame rates too low and run times too long to make a difference.
 
Dont forget we're still waiting on the 65nm process from AMD which should help this rather large negative a bit.

Not really. Dont forget we're still waiting on the 45nm process from Intel which should hit around the same time AMD actually hits 65nm.

True about some of the other bits... Asus sucking donkeys... On the power supply you have significantly more leaway on the Intel platform. But at least with the QX processor you can buy one elsewhere for around the $1K-1.1K mark.
 
...in the Anandtech review ONE FX-74 CPU is actually faster in some applications than TWO due to the increase in memory latency from having to traverse a HT link and access the other CPU's memory, yet Kentsfield takes practically no performance hit at all. So much for FSB being a limiting factor....

Someone who I'd regard as knowledgable address that point in another forum suggesting the performance deficit was related to XP's somewhat clumsy handling of code locality in a NUMA architecture. Every review I've seen has each CPU with 1GB or RAM each, I'd be curious to see if QuadFX scaled relatively better with additional memory.
 
AMD should enable all the three HTT ports on those FX's, so effectively two of them to be used for ccNUMA broadcasting between the processors, thus cutting the inter-latency by half.
 
AMD should enable all the three HTT ports on those FX's, so effectively two of them to be used for ccNUMA broadcasting between the processors, thus cutting the inter-latency by half.

They already have 3 HTT links active looking at the chipset diagrams, both 680a's connect to CPU0 and CPU0 connects to CPU1, so CPU0 uses all three and CPU1 uses 1.
Also how would this reduce LATENCY? Surely it would just increase bandwidth?

Last test/graph on this page is quite interesting:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-quad-fx_12.html

Jawed

No information on how the WinRAR tests were performing though, for all we know they could have been completely faster on the Intel platforms and therefore reducing the performance in Quake.
Not saying this is whats happening, but it would be interesting to compare...
 
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They already have 3 HTT links active looking at the chipset diagrams, both 680a's connect to CPU0 and CPU0 connects to CPU1, so CPU0 uses all three...
Yup, I missed that part, but nevertheless my proposal is referring to this (instead of the reference arrangement) but in this case Nvidia also must rework their ASICs with more HTT ports to be able to chain them directly.

Also how would this reduce LATENCY? Surely it would just increase bandwidth?
By spreading the requests over two communication paths. And the bandwidth is also an issue here, when there is a frequent access/fetching to a remote memory partition.
 
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