Alternative internet experience with PS3?

[one]

Today the Japanese official site of PS3 has opened. It has a branch site called PLAYSTATION 3 Concept Site. It is probably meant for the promotion to convince people of the value of expensive PS3 by explaining its product concept.

This PS3 Concept Site currently has a 10-minutes video message from Kazunori Yamauchi (Polyphony Digital, Gran Turismo) in which he expresses his thoughts on PS3, and some other videos will come later. He appreciates HD, physics simulation, and the network. HD is good for the racing game genre that requires wide viewing angles and far sight. With network a game can evolve everyday. Network function enables not only multiplayer but also a car-enthusiast online community composed of users, game developers, and car manufacturers.

But one thing that caught my attention is he repeatedly mentions a new network experience in the future created by PS3 and a TV connected to it. In the 3rd chapter of the video (with the caption "Want to create a new future with a network") he says

The third (merit of PS3) is it connects to a network. So far gaming has been about connecting a hardware to a TV and play, then buy the next game, then play. We were playing games in a very closed environment. All PS3 generation games support online, which means, how should I explain, well, when it comes to network support maybe people tend to imagine cellphone, PC, internet. But what I expect for the PS3 is something different from the current internet or a network/internet world with current Windows and Internet Explorer. PS3 has that possibility. There is a PS3 in a living room. The PS3 is connected to a TV. Then what's displayed in the TV? Well I'd like everyone to imagine that. The network or internet you are currently using is probably a certain face of the possibility of a network, but not all. So, including me as a developer, we want to create something like a possible future by using a network. It's plain and comfortable for everybody. I hope such a new network world comes into existence.

Also from the 7th chapter with the caption "what will be displayed in a TV of 10 years later?",

I think PS3 is not only a gaming revolution but also a TV revolution, simply put. It's about what's displayed in a TV. Playstation connects to a network, then that Playstation is connected to a home TV. That's where the new world will begin from now on. Since I have confidence that something different from what everyone knows as the world of internet today will be born in the future, I think this year is probably the first year it begins. So, what you'll see 10 years later, or, what a TV of 10 years later will look like, what will be displayed in that TV, what we will be doing with a TV - I can imagine a very interesting future.

Recently I posted my speculation about a possible feature of PS3. Aside from the context of the secret feature rumor discussed in some places, I'm intrigued by what Kawanishi (the manager of the software platform division of SCEI) said in his post-E3 interview that they wanted to create an alternative internet experience which is different from web browsing and sending mails. We know the crazy vision of Kutaragi (Matrix, 4D, Cyber World etc.) too. My speculation was some kind of 3D visualization of an overlay network generated by PS3 and Cell servers. In other words, Cell-assisted 3D massively-multiplayer-online environment. Think Google Maps/Earth populated by PS3 users and other live objects in which you can navigate through. It's not a Unix-originated text-based internet, but a visual representation of the internet enabled by Cell. They have to promote the necessity and the merit of the Cell microprocessor in the way layperson can perceive besides games.

This new comment by Yamauchi has reinforced my speculation. It involves the PS3, and a TV, so it's visual and easy to browse on a TV. At least this similarity between what Kawanishi and Yamauchi said suggests the PR division is working behind to promote something, if not ready for the PS3 launch or in the near future.

What do you think are they planning (or not)?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

"Sony ownz da Web!"

A closed internet has appeal, but it can't displace the real internet due to volume of content. I guess the social and media aspects of the internet could be consolidated into a PS3 experience, with proprietary network software. The internet, founded on an ancient text-description meta-language, doesn't seem ideal for an interactive online experience. The Cell and PlayStation were designed to do the job currently fulfilled by an architecture designed for office applications. By that same reasoning, instead of building up a multimedia experience on HTML that is a legacy muddle of conflicting pseudo-standards, a grass-roots level interface could be created. Instead of having dozens of codecs and plugins and conflicting browsers, think of something like BD-J as the webpage format with one movie codec, AVC. This could be an interface to movie and game websites over the PlayStation network, and a basis for interactive virtual worlds say for meeting folk and discussing things, and it'd be much better for the job than the current system. Personally I think Flash could be made a standard that's easy and capable.

Anywho, I guess that could be what they're aiming at. Don't just allow PS3 to access HTML webpages, but encourage a new interactive format with whatefer bizarro interfaces the designers care to provide.

 

[hey69]

maybe it is possible to send the tv output of your game you are playing over the internet to another ones TV trough his ps3? (maybe in lower res)
sort of ps3TV

 

[Arwin]

I remember someone from SCE being a very big fan of myspace. Maybe it's related to that.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Very interesting theory once again one. This is all very interesting to me. I appreciate the translation as well. ( http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=819691&postcount=25 )

Well honestly, I've always thought the words of Ken Kutaragi to be very optimistic towards the idea of the online platform. With the idea of a 3d type visualization of the "world" on our tv's it sounds all so surreal. The ideas of ken are there, the potential is all there, and I suppose the hardware is there as well. But I don't know if the execution is there. I just don't know if I could imagine a 3d world to walk around in and see pretty much everyone in the world who owns a ps3. Maybe if it were somewhat like the x-men movies professor X machine where he could see every mutant in the world with little dots on the globe. But to actually see buildings and such in 3d maybe sounds too optimistic to me. I do think they are going to take a worldwide perspective on the online platform. We can see evidence of them taking notes from stuff like youtube, online forums, myspace, skype, etc. Giving users to pretty much individually share their life with everyone else. We will have to wait and see.

The coming weeks (TGS specifically) will definately be interesting to see what unfolds regarding the network.

 

[patsu]

I'd think that initially, Sony has to do something simple and useful (for free). Yes, this could be something like online gaming, and MySpace.

More years of research is still needed to see how best to project and interact with a limited controller + large TV (Unless they bundle in the keyboard and mouse). This is the next largest obstacle since PS3 is already addressing the other more difficult issues (business model, mass market appeal and content). It will take a few more years to get it right/ready.

In my view, there will surely be something planned for an alternate network environment (but Sony won't limit its users to it). [I'm just speculating this based on my understanding of online businesses !]

Sony has been involved in alternative network environment before. Besides Ken's "Jack into the Matrix" statement, there is also the "MagicCap OS" funded by AT&T and Sony, which abstract the entire network into 3 concepts: "People, Places and Things". In this environment, Software agents (representing "People") are sent/routed automatically through the network to (various "Places" to) gather info and transact ("Things"). It's built on a smart Email-like infrastructure, so the network enables consumers and businesses to trade among each other. There was also a simple desktop metaphor for it. MagicCap died because of stability issues with its hardware. They did not go far enough to obtain more content.

On the other hand, many 3D chat/virtual worlds have been done during the dotcom boom. Most (All ?) of them died because they are clumsy to use compared to simple point and click. Some of the recent virtual world successes include "Habbo Hotel", "Second Life" but they are not really 3D.

So I think the best way for Sony to start is still to do something conceptually simple and familiar first. The problem is harder than it looks.

EDIT:
I also believe that Sony may gain more by targeting XBLA first (i.e., alternate gaming experiences) before an alternate Internet experience.

 

[inefficient]

I have to say the screenshots up on the official GT PS3 site are completely embarassing.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/gt_ps3/

It is 1080p. But there is some severe aliasing going on at that res. I think the game actually looks worse at this res because all the graphical flaws like bad texturing and bad filtering really stand out.

But I guess there are enough hardcore GT fans (there are plenty) to make this worth a product. But I personally will wait for the next REAL GT game to come out.

 

[Qroach]

some of thsoe shots don't appear to be running in 1080p, but something lower upscaled to that resoloution. My guess is 720p upscaled.

 

[PiNkY]

How dare you say anything negative about GT4... aeh GT HD's graphics. Don't you know that next gen only starts november 17th?

 

[inefficient]

some of thsoe shots don't appear to be running in 1080p, but something lower upscaled to that resoloution. My guess is 720p upscaled.

It looks clearly natively 1080p to me. And I am viewing this on a 24" 1920x1200 monitor. Are you sure you are not letting your browser resize the images for you? Or maybe it's the jpg artifacts that are throwing you off.

300% magnification.

The aliasing wouldn't be nearly as sharp if it was upscaled. Upscaled it would look more blurry. And The actual stair stepping effect would not be so perfectly sharp.

 

[Arwin]

I have to say the screenshots up on the official GT PS3 site are completely embarassing.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/gt_ps3/

It is 1080p. But there is some severe aliasing going on at that res. I think the game actually looks worse at this res because all the graphical flaws like bad texturing and bad filtering really stand out.

Not something you're bound to notice a lot when everything is moving at 60fps, trust me. Which is, by the way, still quite impressive whichever way you look at it (that's, what, 400MByte/s?)

Of course we'd want it to be even prettier than it is now, but for us GT fans of course we're going to be thrilled already if it just has the proper online support. I am one of those guys who gathers twice a year together with a whole bunch of other guys (around 50) in Germany to have 4-5 setups (=6 PS2s linked) worth of LAN Partying and competitions.

If we get more cars on the track as well, that would be completely awesome.

Running at 1080p, it should give some options for smoothing out the graphics at 720p also?

Anyway, you can find a quote from me from more than a year ago I think somewhere that says that if they get GT4 running at photo-mode quality at launch with online, that's going to make me very happy and will be very helpful to tide me over until the inevitably endlessly delayed GT5 comes out.

But I guess there are enough hardcore GT fans (there are plenty) to make this worth a product. But I personally will wait for the next REAL GT game to come out.

Yup, and I can't blame you! Also, it would have been nice of them to make this online version of GT4 (which may also come out for PS2) a budget title from day one. Well, they still might.

 

[patsu]

... think of something like BD-J as the webpage format with one movie codec, AVC. This could be an interface to movie and game websites over the PlayStation network, and a basis for interactive virtual worlds say for meeting folk and discussing things, and it'd be much better for the job than the current system. Personally I think Flash could be made a standard that's easy and capable.

Heh heh... for commercial PS3 games, each game or franchise can already be a persistent, custom world of its own (if they want to). Online game modes, community services, downloadable content, active players, supporting materials (multiple language and audio tracks), fan-contributed content, old games that appear as demos but can be unlocked with appropriate license keys, are custom fit into a seamless Blu-ray portal. BD-J can weave all these different elements together into a consistent whole. In this sense, the "virtual world" is unique to every game (e.g., Is there a host/mascot ? how you get matched/introduced to other players, how to contribute content, blah blah).

As for grass-root effort... here's what I did so far (not ported to Cell yet, still researching),

The framework, like what you mentioned, is done on Flash... meaning
+ The environment is event driven
+ The world is dynamically composed
+ Like the original Cell network patent, a Flash "object" can be attached to Email, viewed via web, copy to disc, ... and run on any PC, Mac (or Cell) node
+ Extra behaviour can be modified/augmented on the fly (by downloading/absorbing another Flash clip selectively)

e.g., In my case, the maps are generated dynamically based on google search keywords. Buildings and objects in the game world are created based on the search result. The NPCs are created from people who used the same (or similar) keywords for the past 24 hours. I have also created A* search in the world to have some basic navigation capability. Each user can create and send Flash objects to infect or change the other user's world (within Flash's sandbox). They can also request for services from the server.

But really, there are still lots of problems to solve. The concept is not new, but there are many fundamental issues (especially usability) to address first.

 

[one]

I have to say the screenshots up on the official GT PS3 site are completely embarassing.

http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/gt_ps3/

Actually those images have a footnote which says "these pics are all from GT:HD at E3" that implies they are mere stopgaps for the web site. (which I clarified in the other thread already http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33077)

 

[Mythos]

Just to throw my 2cents...Possibly what could be developing with this alternative net thing is a sort of a multi-media network. Like an online community of gameing, music, movies, etc...Part VOD, online gameing, IM/Video, Myspace, utube, etc...

 

[Geo]

Videophone!

Oh, wait, they didn't put a camera on it. Damn.

 

[Bad_Boy]

If that other rumor thread is anything to go off by, the orginal ps2 eyetoy will be compatible with the ps3. Or if you want something new... Eye Toy 2, that should be an option.

 

[one]

A new interview with Kawanishi discusses a part of this topic and also confirms "PS3 on PSP".
http://itpro.nikkeibp.co.jp/a/it/alacarte/interview0901/kn_1.shtml

In this special interview titled PSP becomes "Virtual PS3", the first topic is about the network distribution of PS3, PSP, PS1 games, demo, and movies. The terminals for this service is PS3, PC, and Wireless LAN. Since their policy is using open networks, they support not only PC but also devices such as cell phones. In future, they plan PS emulators on PC and cell phone too.

Then onto the section which is directly relevant to this topic, titled "To The Server-Centric Form",

-- Do you have such a technology (networking) as a research theme too?

Izumi Kawanishi: Yes, especially we regard Cell server systems as important. If we could create a massive environment where we can generate contents server-side, it'd be a totally different world from the current browsing-oriented internet.
When that happens, to put it in an extreme, the terminal may be a TV itself. Processing at a client terminal is completely unnecessary when server-generated movies are distributed via broadband. It's a server-centric form. However beyond it it may become peer-to-peer again.

-- Do you plan a form of play by linking PS3 and PSP?

IK: Movie distribution from PS3 to PSP is also possible. It means sending a movie rendered on a PS3 to a PSP via Wireless LAN. While PS3 is a machine at the center of home like a home server, PSP is an information terminal attached to us.
Since video of PS3 is shown on PSP as it is it's as if PSP became a virtual PS3. Then, what's beyond that network is what I told you about Cell servers.

-- Watching a rendering result of PS3 via PSP, has it already been technically verified?

IK: You can be looking forward it.

-- Can you watch a PS3-rendered movie in home while you are out?

IK: We plan it too as it appears technically possible.

-- Considering the pixel count of PSP there should be no bottleneck in the movie-receiving side. If there's a bottleneck, it'd be in PS3 at the encoding and sending side.

IK: Yes, that's where the power of Cell is utilized. It'd be impossible if it didn't have as much power as that. Since it encodes a PS3-generated movie in realtime and sends it to PSP, the overhead is added like a tax.

-- Users may think PSP is great, not PS3.

IK: It's a good thing that they can't see it, which is the virtual world.

-- In future how will PSP evolve? If PSP becomes a virtual PS3, it means PSP needs no more power.

IK: No, it's not like that, engineers still seek the way to make it better.

So it seems they are planning to create Google-like massive servers with Cell and use them to create this alternative network. Once Kutaragi talked about in the future how a movie director can "jack in" to a movie scene while shooting it. It allows PS3 users (and TV, probably with Cell, users) to do it.

 

[Nesh]

A new interview with Kawanishi discusses a part of this topic and also confirms "PS3 on PSP".
http://itpro.nikkeibp.co.jp/a/it/alacarte/interview0901/kn_1.shtml

In this special interview titled PSP becomes "Virtual PS3", the first topic is about the network distribution of PS3, PSP, PS1 games, demo, and movies. The terminals for this service is PS3, PC, and Wireless LAN. Since their policy is using open networks, they support not only PC but also devices such as cell phones. In future, they plan PS emulators on PC and cell phone too.

Then onto the section which is directly relevant to this topic, titled "To The Server-Centric Form",
So it seems they are planning to create Google-like massive servers with Cell and use them to create this alternative network. Once Kutaragi talked about in the future how a movie director can "jack in" to a movie scene while shooting it. It allows PS3 users (and TV, probably with Cell, users) to do it.

Well what do you know the crazy fanguy was rpoven right yet again

 

[one]

Well what do you know the crazy fanguy was rpoven right yet again

That thought had completely slipped my mind Well it was a well-known concept because of the patent, but I think it's the first time they admit it.

 

[patsu]

A new interview with Kawanishi discusses a part of this topic and also confirms "PS3 on PSP".
http://itpro.nikkeibp.co.jp/a/it/alacarte/interview0901/kn_1.shtml

In this special interview titled PSP becomes "Virtual PS3", the first topic is about the network distribution of PS3, PSP, PS1 games, demo, and movies. The terminals for this service is PS3, PC, and Wireless LAN. Since their policy is using open networks, they support not only PC but also devices such as cell phones. In future, they plan PS emulators on PC and cell phone too.

Ok that makes sense, subjected to *upstream* bandwidth and latency issues with home servers. PSP is already doing it with LocationFree. Reviews mentioned that there is a noticeable delay when sending TV commands back to the server. There are generally good feedback regarding the PQ of LocationFree video (when viewed across the net).

DLNA specifications also include uPnP and VPN support so I hope to see an even easier setup process.

-- Do you have such a technology (networking) as a research theme too?

Izumi Kawanishi: Yes, especially we regard Cell server systems as important. If we could create a massive environment where we can generate contents server-side, it'd be a totally different world from the current browsing-oriented internet.
When that happens, to put it in an extreme, the terminal may be a TV itself. Processing at a client terminal is completely unnecessary when server-generated movies are distributed via broadband. It's a server-centric form. However beyond it it may become peer-to-peer again.

They will need to solve many layers of problems besides technical feasbility (including operating cost and business models). The WoW folks hesitate to bring their world to consoles, so I suspect there are lot's of technical challenges too.

The most viable in the near future is probably video on demand, where video is streamed and cached/stored locally (for "rewind" and such). Even then the Cell servers may need to be beef'ed up significantly. e.g., Sun Fire X4500 has 4 Opteron cores, 16Gb RAM and 48 high-speed drives (24Tb), directly attached to the unit for high speed media delivery.

I'd have thought Sony wants to think small first. There are still many tiny, day-to-day issues people face when using PCs for home media, especially in the living room. Sony is in a position to capitalize on them.

The casual game market is doing well too (not just XBLA), so Sony should (and most likely will) focus on the low hanging fruits first.