Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

[eastmen]

If you're going to use kiosks, might as well plug a 2.5" external HDD into them because flash write speeds are pitiful, you'll be there for hours with flash. With external HDD's it will still take a good half hour if not more. Sounds like an over elaborate way to avoid optical media, which would likely to be cheaper. Just make the games available on disc and dd, let the user choose how they want it.

http://www.everythingusb.com/super-talent-usb-3.0-raiddrive-17951.html

200MB/s or 320MB/s with the driver they talk about

10 gig game at 200MB/s is 51.2 seconds . 10 gig game at 320MB/s is 32 seconds. Double it fora 20 gig game and your at 102.4 seconds or 64 seconds.

Not out of the realm of being viable.


THe problem is if you make the game avalible on disc , our going to loose out on the advantages of hardrive speeds both transfer and seek time because the game still ahs to work on disc.

 

[Blazkowicz]

it's "up to" 300MB/s, on a high end drive . or low end in the SSD realm.

I'm not sure requiring millions of users to carry a $100 drive to the store is a good idea.
you only have to wait before a gaming store, then beat the shit out of a 16-year-old or some frail mother, and here is it - free SSD worth a useful amount of drug and alcohol.

 

[eastmen]

it's "up to" 300MB/s, on a high end drive . or low end in the SSD realm.

I'm not sure requiring millions of users to carry a $100 drive to the store is a good idea.
you only have to wait before a gaming store, then beat the shit out of a 16-year-old or some frail mother, and here is it - free SSD worth a useful amount of drug and alcohol.

Unless its a propritery port that doesn't exist on anything but the system and kiosk.


Also I don't know why you think they will be $100 bucks when a next gen system launches.

 

[swaaye]

Anybody have an idea what it costs to put out high capacity ROM carts today? Surely it's cheaper than flash memory, and we have 1-2GB USB sticks with more than just flash RAM inside selling for a pittance.

I really don't care for the PSP's UVD drive. It's pretty slow, noisy and the caddies can degrade over time (I've run into trouble). Get that mechanical stuff out of portables.

 

[Rolf N]

Anybody have an idea what it costs to put out high capacity ROM carts today? Surely it's cheaper than flash memory, and we have 1-2GB USB sticks with more than just flash RAM inside selling for a pittance.

Flash has the volume argument on its side easily. There's also the issue of taping out a ROM to a fab and waiting N weeks to get the product back, instead of just writing bits to generic flash.

Is proper ROM still in use anywhere?

 

[corduroygt]

http://www.everythingusb.com/super-talent-usb-3.0-raiddrive-17951.html

200MB/s or 320MB/s with the driver they talk about

10 gig game at 200MB/s is 51.2 seconds . 10 gig game at 320MB/s is 32 seconds. Double it fora 20 gig game and your at 102.4 seconds or 64 seconds.

Not out of the realm of being viable.


THe problem is if you make the game avalible on disc , our going to loose out on the advantages of hardrive speeds both transfer and seek time because the game still ahs to work on disc.

Very convenient of you to ignore the prices, here they are:
32GB 239$
64GB 329$
128GB 559$

Fast flash has absolutely no place in game distribution, the best we can hope for is to have 4-8GB for onboard cache purposes. Oh and before you play the "prices will go down" card, they haven't in the last 1.5 years.

 

[specwarGP2]

If you're going to use kiosks, might as well plug a 2.5" external HDD into them because flash write speeds are pitiful, you'll be there for hours with flash. With external HDD's it will still take a good half hour if not more. Sounds like an over elaborate way to avoid optical media, which would likely to be cheaper. Just make the games available on disc and dd, let the user choose how they want it.

What's the point of kiosks? You have to buy your own storage media to load the games. You still have to drive to the store to get the game. You possibly have to stand in 2 different lines and it takes longer to get the game in your possession because of the time to copy from kiosk to storage media.

Unless getting games from a kiosk is cheaper (highly doubtful!) I see no meaningful advantage for the consumer to choose a kiosk based delivery system vs the one in place today.

 

[AzBat]

What's the point of kiosks? You have to buy your own storage media to load the games. You still have to drive to the store to get the game. You possibly have to stand in 2 different lines and it takes longer to get the game in your possession because of the time to copy from kiosk to storage media.

Unless getting games from a kiosk is cheaper (highly doubtful!) I see no meaningful advantage for the consumer to choose a kiosk based delivery system vs the one in place today.

I think his reasoning is using kiosks for digital content instead of discs sold on retail shelves. This would be solely for those without broadband to download the games at home. Sounds plausible to me if they want to avoid optical media.

Tommy McClain

 

[Blazkowicz]

I believe a kiosk will work better if you let the user bring any kind of media, be it USB thumb, hard drive, official storage or using a laptop. The files are encrypted/DRM'ed anyway.

Or you may be able to download at an internet café (whose owner may maintain or not a mirror or cache if they wish). This is where a huge amount of people are getting on the internet anyway

 

[specwarGP2]

I think his reasoning is using kiosks for digital content instead of discs sold on retail shelves. This would be solely for those without broadband to download the games at home. Sounds plausible to me if they want to avoid optical media.

Tommy McClain

Wasn't the kiosk idea supposed to be a means for retailers to sell games for a system that used no physical media?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Fast flash has absolutely no place in game distribution, the best we can hope for is to have 4-8GB for onboard cache purposes. Oh and before you play the "prices will go down" card, they haven't in the last 1.5 years.

You think that fast 32GB's is going to remain $239 forever?

 

[Squilliam]

You think that fast 32GB's is going to remain $239 forever?

Do you know when the 450mm wafers are going into production for flash? I suspect its the one main important factor in reducing the price per chip down to respectable levels irrespective of their capacity.

 

[AzBat]

Wasn't the kiosk idea supposed to be a means for retailers to sell games for a system that used no physical media?

Umm. Isn't that what I said, but in fewer words?

You said this...

Unless getting games from a kiosk is cheaper (highly doubtful!) I see no meaningful advantage for the consumer to choose a kiosk based delivery system vs the one in place today.

I took this to mean that you didn't think there was any advantage to choose kiosk versus downloading. Most likely the kiosk method would only be for those that could not download the content directly to their console at home because either they don't have Internet or don't have a fast enough connection. Nobody would go the kiosk route if they could just download it at home. This isn't about whether kiosk is cheaper or more convenient, it's just another source to get games for those that can't get it the preferred way: online.

Tommy McClain

 

[specwarGP2]

Umm. Isn't that what I said, but in fewer words?

Well considering the topic (games distributed on SSD) games would still be sold primarily through retail (stores would boycott a DD only console) and kiosks would be the alternative to SSDs (which are an alternative to optical).

So based on that, I think kiosks are pointless :smile:

 

[AzBat]

Well considering the topic (games distributed on SSD) games would still be sold primarily through retail (stores would boycott a DD only console) and kiosks would be the alternative to SSDs (which are an alternative to optical).

So based on that, I think kiosks are pointless :smile:

Gotcha. I wasn't thinking of using SSDs as a storage medium to be included in a retail package. I was thinking of them as something like a memory card that you buy to take to the store to fill up with games. In that scenario the kiosk idea would work.

Tommy McClain

 

[Danalys]

You might aswell have a system like Microsoft's installable 360 games for a handheld, instead of kiosks. since waiting at a kiosk isn't going to be fun or in the case of fast writeable memory expensive. Your UMD or next gen disc can be there for a CD check which shouldn't take much power. Once installed you get the advantage of fast loads. People can have the option of Downloading over the systems online network aswell. Retail's kept happy enough and the advantage to the customer of finding old out of print games is there.

The only disadvantage of the UMD in that case is it's actual bulk and how that relates to portability, which could be solved by making it detachable. Manufacturers simply can't go DD only instantly. Need to allow install from disc like on steam and 360 for a good long while still.

 

[eastmen]

Well a plus in favor of my SD as the shipping media idea is that now you can get class 4/6 8 gig cards for under $10 with no rebates of any kind. 16 gig cards are at $20.

Class 10 cards are 15/30 respectively but will transfer at close to 20MB/s which would be between a 4 and a 6 speed bluray transfer rate.

 

[corduroygt]

Well a plus in favor of my SD as the shipping media idea is that now you can get class 4/6 8 gig cards for under $10 with no rebates of any kind. 16 gig cards are at $20.

Class 10 cards are 15/30 respectively but will transfer at close to 20MB/s which would be between a 4 and a 6 speed bluray transfer rate.

So you have one console where the games cost $60, come on a disc, and use up to 50GB of assets vs. another where they cost $70 and come on a 8GB card? It'll be N64 vs. PS2 all over again in that case. I don't see the console with the more expensive and limited games succeeding if the games are graphically the same, which they won't be due to reduced storage space. You'll only have so few different levels before the textures fill up the disc.

Nothing beats optical as a physical distribution medium on cost/GB. I'd be more in favor of DD like Steam where you could pick up 8 month old games for 7.50 like Just Cause 2. But instead, Sony/MS ask $30 for an old game that can be found on disc for $10-15. I'm not saying DD will replace physical, but if the older games are there at reasonable cost (equal to or less than the used copy of a game a year later), I predict me getting a lot of DD games. It's all about the cost.

 

[I.S.T.]

Digital distribution is not a realistic method until net infrastructure improves in several countries. I know Germany(From what a close friend who lives there has told me) and the US are kinda fucked. The pipes(so to speak) just can't handle the data needed for that, and many peoples' connections are far too slow.

FWIW, I don't say this because I have a slow connection. I can download at up to 1.7 megabytes on a regular basis, often at the same time my mother uses Netflix Instant Watch on my X360. I would not personally be inconvenienced by digital distribution only consoles.

As for flash, you could go bigger than SD cards easy. The reason SD, etc cards cost so much for so little capacity is they use tiny chips. Just put out a physically bigger card/whatever that can use many smaller capacity chips that don't cost much, and to combat the slow speeds, require installation on a hard drive. Bing bang boom finished.

The problem is would that be enough to combat the cost problem? I don't know enough about the costs of flash memory to be certain. I hope so, but I suspect it wouldn't be enough. =\

Regardless, MS and Sony pretty much will be using Blu-Ray next gen. Anything like DD or flash memory or whatever won't be a factor until the gen after next. That simple. The tech just isn't there yet, and won't be by the time the consoles start launching in 2015 and shortly after.

 

[ct03]

I know Germany(From what a close friend who lives there has told me) and the US are kinda fucked.

Unless somebody is an expert on the topic, their assessment should never be taken at face value.

Speedtest.net runs about 25,000 connection tests per hour. Here is the global data:
http://speedtest.net/global.php#0

Pos: 13 Germany, Avg. Download Speed = 16.61 Mb/s
Pos: 33 United States, Avg. Download Speed = 9.89 Mb/s

I don't see anything standing in the way of digital distribution other than download caps.