Airbags in cars, who wants or needs them?

[Frank]

I'm sure bad stuff can happen with airbags, just like some people are hurt and killed by seatbelts, but it is not the edge cases that matter, but the macroscopic aggregate. And in that regard, even in spite of people perhaps driving more recklessly, both seatbelts and airbags have reduced deaths in accidents.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/208con2e.html#sec2.4

To me, even a 5%-30% improvement is worth it. We're talking thousands of lives.

Yes. But, the amount of accidents increased. So on the whole, it didn't result in less deaths, only in a reduction of deaths compared to the amount of accidents.

 

[Frank]

I'm curious as to the nature of this consensus. Do they mean it in the sense that airbags don't do anything (or do more harm than good), or that by themselves, they're useless unless the car is a Porsche?

No, just that airbags in Porsches are done very well, and so are a boon across the scale. They do exactly what they're intended to do, nothing more or less. Porsche takes technology and engineering very seriously. No corners are cut.

 

[Frank]

Yes, it's called risk assessment or something. A person subconciously accepts a certain level of risk, and if you make them feel safer, they will change their behaviour to get back to that certain risk level they will accept. It's the same reason why drivers will pull out in front of a motorbike or small car with less thought, but are more likely to hold off if there's a big truck coming down the road as that appears "more risky".

Yes, that's the thing. Nicely said!

And that also means, that people put the lives of other people on the line, because they feel safe and don't care. It's just a nameless someone. Tempers rise in traffic.

But they tend to change that opinion if they actually experience killing someone else.

 

[Frank]

You can help mitigate this a bit by properly adjusting your steering wheel (for the driver's airbag). It's best to make sure your steering wheel is pointed at your chest instead of your face. Your chest can much better withstand the pounding that comes from the explosion of the airbag.

If the airbag deploys as it's supposed to, it won't really matter very much. Although it might break your nose, hand(s) and burn you pretty bad. But that's a lot better than what Digi suffered!

 

[Frank]

Anyway, amongst other things we made fascias with the airbag panels being cut by lasers. Only, the fascia board material caliper was all over the place so it wasn't exactly a precision job and the stuff was all patched up with epoxy where holes had blown in some of the mouldings. These would have been parts where the airbag exit point in the fascia could've done anything in the event of discharge: exploded into fragments, not opened at all.

And that last one is the killer, literally: when the airbag hatch isn't opening, the whole dashboard will explode.

Although the chance of that happening is very small, it depends on the quality and strictness by which the parts are produced. That's why Porsche is doing so well, and the old Saab and other high-quality brands have a very good score as well.

But more common, as you said, stuff will break into fragments and be launched at very high speed. And while that turns out pretty well most of the time, it can cause some dire wounds. Which is the main thing why the testers don't like airbags very much. There is too much that can go wrong and cause very serious injuries. After all, they have to pry all those fragments out afterwards.

But then again, even that isn't very common, fortunately. But it does make buying a car equipped with airbags into a risky game of luck. But the odds are definitely very much in your favor, so don't worry about it.

 

[Frank]

Whoever doesn't wear a seatbelt has DESERVED to have something happen to him IMHO.

As for airbags, these saved my life as I had a crash in January. Side/windowbags, i was hit from the left side. They prevented my head from crushing into the window. I found my glasses somewhere on the back seat after it was over, the explosion literally blew them away. My "opponent" was also saved by the driver's airbag, prevented his head from hitting the steering wheel.

So both airbags and seat belts are essential, I'd never, ever buy a car without airbags again. Also, never again without ESP.

How do you know? You have no way of knowing what would have happened if you had no airbags. And your car might be designed different without them, so there isn't even much use in extrapolating.

 

[_xxx_]

How do you know? You have no way of knowing what would have happened if you had no airbags. And your car might be designed different without them, so there isn't even much use in extrapolating.

Trust me, in this case I do. It was a very hard crash and the airbags cought me in flight, literally. Otherwise the momentum would have sent my head+upper body straight through the window, maybe even severed my legs.

 

[KimB]

Yes, that's the thing. Nicely said!

And that also means, that people put the lives of other people on the line, because they feel safe and don't care. It's just a nameless someone. Tempers rise in traffic.

But they tend to change that opinion if they actually experience killing someone else.

Well, I think that people will typically change their driving habits when carrying passengers. The problem is that most people on the road drive alone, and there's a lack of empathy for people outside of your car.

 

[KimB]

Oh, God, somebody answered to the second one? That's really, really bad. An airbag without a safety belt is almost completely useless, and is much worse than a safety belt alone.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Modern cars deactivate the passenger airbag as soon as the kids' safety seat is "plugged in". You've probably seen those "Passenger airbag off" LED's in some cars.

EDIT: not through a pressure sensor, but a switch in the belt socket.

The one in my car also uses a pressure sensor to test weight (it's probably actually a little more crude than an electronic sensor per se), and so if you have an occupant under a certain weight not in a child seat (or no one in the seat at all), the passenger airbag is off. If the weight is within a certain range, the airbag is on, but the explosion rate is controlled to be a supposedly safer speed. In turn, it also complains if it detects someone in the seat and no belt clicked in (and won't let me accelerate past 15 mph while doing so).

 

[Moloch]

what kinda car

 

[_xxx_]

The one in my car also uses a pressure sensor to test weight (it's probably actually a little more crude than an electronic sensor per se), and so if you have an occupant under a certain weight not in a child seat (or no one in the seat at all), the passenger airbag is off. If the weight is within a certain range, the airbag is on, but the explosion rate is controlled to be a supposedly safer speed. In turn, it also complains if it detects someone in the seat and no belt clicked in (and won't let me accelerate past 15 mph while doing so).

In all cars I know, the pressure sensor is used just to detect if someone's in the passenger seat and to produce a warning if the belt isn't plugged in, while the aforementioned switch is used to deactivate the airbag if the child seat is detected. Just curious, what are you driving?

 

[Ty]

I would like to add, that it's not only the airbag itself that might hurt you, but it has to create a hole in the dashboard or steering wheel while doing so. And that can create nasty fragments, travelling at high speed. Edit: or hurt your hands badly if it's some kind of door.

Actually what also tends to happen (or so I've read) is that upon a crash, people throw up their arms to protect themselves, which the air bag then slams into, propelling arms/fists into the occupants face.

 

[KimB]

I doubt that happens in a significant number of crashes.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Having had the "fun" of going thru a windshield face-first at about 50mph back in the 80s I have to admit that I like knowing there is an airbag in my vehicle.

Given that you didn't wear your seat belt at the time, you should be happy your car did *not* have an airbag...

 

[KimB]

Given that you didn't wear your seat belt at the time, you should be happy your car did *not* have an airbag...

According to the statistics posted in this thread, an airbag doesn't hurt if you're not wearing a seatbelt, it just doesn't do much of anything to help.

 

[CosmoKramer]

According to the statistics posted in this thread, an airbag doesn't hurt if you're not wearing a seatbelt, it just doesn't do much of anything to help.

That's bullshit. It can break your neck (among other things) if you're not using a seatbelt.

Btw, I actually got my driver's license today (!), so I have these things in fresh memory...

 

[KimB]

Yes, it can. But, as I said, according to the statistics posted in this thread, it overall still is of some tiny help. Obviously you'd be stupid to not wear your seatbelt, however, as using an airbag without a seatbelt is statistically almost like not having any safety device at all.

 

[_xxx_]

Actually what also tends to happen (or so I've read) is that upon a crash, people throw up their arms to protect themselves, which the air bag then slams into, propelling arms/fists into the occupants face.

The airbags are activated in some 10-20 ms, no way you could have enough time to raise your hands.

Or do you mean letting go of the steering wheel prior to the crash? I can't really imagine that, since you'll always steer in order to (try to) avoid the crash.

 

[Blade]

In a fast German car, I'm amazed that I survived, an airbag saved my life?

I have nothing to add to the discussion.