A Wall between US/Mexico

[StefanS]

landmines against humans are banned...

We (USA) have not signed that treaty. Why?? Because of North Korea/South Korea border. Which is the only place that I think should ever have land mines separating countries. We and they currently use lots of landmines in that border.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

The expansion itself is really the last thing the EU needs. The EU is a fragile, culturally diverse burocratic nightmare which lives by the grace of the few countries who put more money into the project than they take out - ie germany and the netherlands. Adding more countries whose inhabitants are so poor that they will work for next to nothing will put a tremendous strain on the weak bond that the EU already is.

Well, I'd like to have had the European constitution in place before the expansion. That way a lot of administration problems would have been resolved and we didn't have Poland's and Spain's political leaders acting like 5 year olds.
BTW, there 're a lot more countries who pay more than they get out (e.g.: Austria, Scandinavic countries, Britain [which is about to lose their Thatcher benefits], etc.).

A little side-note: Since EU MPs are payed exactly the same sum of money as MPs in their respective homelands, Hungarian MPs are payed about 700 EUR, Spanish 3500 EUR; Austrian 5400 EUR. However, taxes are still to be substracted, but that is without travel expenses and other benefits.

 

[epicstruggle]

landmines against humans are banned...

We (USA) have not signed that treaty. Why?? Because of North Korea/South Korea border. Which is the only place that I think should ever have land mines separating countries. We and they currently use lots of landmines in that border.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Why would it. Did you think North Korea hasnt invaded South Korea because their nice? They have over 1million troops within a few miles of the border. The US and SK only have something like 100 to 200 thousand troops. Without the land mines it wouldnt even be funny, how fast NK would take over SK. BTW landmines are bad for civil wars, but for a very narrow and specific case, it has save thousands if not millions of lives.

later,
epic

 

[StefanS]

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Why would it. Did you think North Korea hasnt invaded South Korea because their nice? They have over 1million troops within a few miles of the border. The US and SK only have something like 100 to 200 thousand troops. Without the land mines it wouldnt even be funny, how fast NK would take over SK. BTW landmines are bad for civil wars, but for a very narrow and specific case, it has save thousands if not millions of lives.

I just wondered which was the last international resolution the US actually passed?

Apart from the fact that iron curtains are seldom there to actually prevent an attack. Its main function is to keep oppressed people from fleeing. Trust me, I lived close to the hungarian border...

 

[epicstruggle]

I just wondered which was the last international resolution the US actually passed?

Off the top of my head, the WTO was the last major international treaty signed. Minor ones the Americas Trading block (or whatever its going to be called), a bunch of terrorism treaties.

Apart from the fact that iron curtains are seldom there to actually prevent an attack. Its main function is to keep oppressed people from fleeing. Trust me, I lived close to the hungarian border...

So is the US keeping South Koreans from fleeing to NK. . If your think the other way around, and the US is trying to keep North Koreans from fleeing south, do a search on the china/NK border. because NK keeps a very tight control on its border, it does not allow anyone from leaving.

later,
epic

 

[StefanS]

Apart from the fact that iron curtains are seldom there to actually prevent an attack. Its main function is to keep oppressed people from fleeing. Trust me, I lived close to the hungarian border...

So is the US keeping South Koreans from fleeing to NK. . If your think the other way around, and the US is trying to keep North Koreans from fleeing south, do a search on the china/NK border. because NK keeps a very tight control on its border, it does not allow anyone from leaving.

Read my post again; where did i indicate that the US is keeping north koreans from entering SK? Maybe you should read what is there not read what you want to read

 

[Snyder]

The expansion itself is really the last thing the EU needs. The EU is a fragile, culturally diverse burocratic nightmare which lives by the grace of the few countries who put more money into the project than they take out - ie germany and the netherlands. Adding more countries whose inhabitants are so poor that they will work for next to nothing will put a tremendous strain on the weak bond that the EU already is.

I think you are exaggerating things here. IIRC EU budget is about 85 billion EUR from which about 75 get back to the countries in one way or another. (This information i read somewhere in the jungle of the europa.eu.int website, but I can't be bothered to look for it right now )
That's no sooo much.
I do agree that they should heed the saying "Speed kills." I'm not sure at the moment if it is good to take that many countries right now, especially with Germany's economy still not fully recovered from the Unity. Maybe some "associated" status for some years would have been better than the half-assed membership the new countries get now. (Although...in practice the difference probably would be negligible.)
On the other hand - most of the new members are already the fastest growing markets in the EU, and by a fair margin. Especially Slovenia and the western part of Hungary are on a good way to EU economic standard.
Well, in some regards they even already are - I definitely the impression when traveling there... (I live about 30 km from the hungarian border and about 50 km from the slovenian.)
They could provide the long-sought economic boost the EU definitely needs right now. What western companies must grasp pretty quickly(and I'm sure they do) is the fact that they have a quite considerable new unsaturated market at their fingertips.

And regarding a possible flood of workers from the new members: I have a feeling that it won't be as drastic as some may think. In the border regions we had a definite increase in workers from former Eastern Bloc countries after the fall of the iron curtain, but they don't really pose a threat to the job market, and btw: with them also came the shopping tourists.

 

[StefanS]

I do agree that they should heed the saying "Speed kills."

Don't say that proverb, it just makes me wanna puke

 

[Snyder]

I do agree that they should heed the saying "Speed kills."

Don't say that proverb, it just makes me wanna puke

why is that?

 

[StefanS]

I do agree that they should heed the saying "Speed kills."

Don't say that proverb, it just makes me wanna puke

why is that?

Let's say I've heard a gazillion million times before and it doesn't make Kohl's saying any better or more intelligent...

 

[Humus]

I thought you might dodge the question. Very hard to follow what you preach, but its very easy to tell other what to do. Ok, I assume your schools are public property, are they locked at night?

How about you post a relevant question instead? Yes, I lock my doors. But what does that have to do with anything? If an estonian want to live in Sweden, he's welcome. I see no difference between a swede and an estonian. An estonian should have every right to walk on swedish soil and all public spaces. Just like everyone else. But he don't have any right to intrude any private property, just like swedes.
Of course the relocation should be legally registered, just like my new address is registered when I move, but in no way should anyone keep anyone from coming here.

 

[Sxotty]

ps I guess i should have noted earlier that for more than 10 years I was an illegal alien(in the US), so were my parents and my brother and sister.

Got miner?

 

[Humus]

The expansion itself is really the last thing the EU needs. The EU is a fragile, culturally diverse burocratic nightmare which lives by the grace of the few countries who put more money into the project than they take out - ie germany and the netherlands. Adding more countries whose inhabitants are so poor that they will work for next to nothing will put a tremendous strain on the weak bond that the EU already is.

First of all, I don't expect a huge number of people will move. There wasn't a huge number of people moving from greece of any other less wealthy country when they joined. And even if there would be a lot of people relocating, in what way would it cause any harm? Cheap labor will only boost our economy, and opening the borders will help their economies.

Anyway, all other countries impose blocks for good reasons but of course you're wiser than them

So far the only reason I've heard is "gaaaaah!!! they will take our jobs!!!!!". Personally, I think competition is a good thing.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Thats quite interestingly false.

Exactly. I'll never understand the "who'll do the dirty work" line of argumentation.

It's called supply and demand. It would self-correct itself.

 

[Florin]

First of all, I don't expect a huge number of people will move. There wasn't a huge number of people moving from greece of any other less wealthy country when they joined.

Greece has a GDP per capita of more than $19.000. That is indeed less than in other member states but far from a radical difference. Contrast that to say Poland, where it is $9700 - only slightly more than half!

And even if there would be a lot of people relocating, in what way would it cause any harm? Cheap labor will only boost our economy, and opening the borders will help their economies.

The pressure on the social welfare system from local workers who lose their job or don't get one in the first place will hurt. And while the foreign workers pay income taxes in the country where they work, they will generally spend at least part of their income in their home countries. I wouldn't say it will necessarily boost your economy.

So far the only reason I've heard is "gaaaaah!!! they will take our jobs!!!!!". Personally, I think competition is a good thing.

It might be if there was an even playing field. It will take a long time however before the cost of living in eastern europe will be comparable to that for the workers in western europe. Similarly, the cost of doing business is incomparable due to worker protection, health, environmental and the like regulation.

I maintain that the expansion is a dangerous undertaking considering the current fragile state of the union and personally I feel that given a referendum in the matter you would find that many if not most citizens are in opposition.

 

[epicstruggle]

I thought you might dodge the question. Very hard to follow what you preach, but its very easy to tell other what to do. Ok, I assume your schools are public property, are they locked at night?

How about you post a relevant question instead? Yes, I lock my doors. But what does that have to do with anything? If an estonian want to live in Sweden, he's welcome. I see no difference between a swede and an estonian. An estonian should have every right to walk on swedish soil and all public spaces. Just like everyone else. But he don't have any right to intrude any private property, just like swedes.
Of course the relocation should be legally registered, just like my new address is registered when I move, but in no way should anyone keep anyone from coming here.

Its relevant, what I was trying to do was draw a parrallel between illegal aliens coming to the US and me coming to your home without permission. If you already forgot you posted:

Pleeeease. This world doesn't need more walls, limits, borders and restrictions. We need less.

To me this is quite stupid. So I drew a parrallel to you and your home. The US is my home and the proper home to millions of other citizines, legal aliens, visitors(temporary home). Now if some illegal alien tries to come to the US without permission, shouldnt we try to make it as hard as possible ie build the wall the same as you lock your home.
You also posted:

Do you have mexicans flowing into your home or what? This is a silly simile. A country isn't a private property.

First a country is private property, it is the property of its legal citizens.
Second mexicans(and other foreigners) are flowing through peoples home.

Chief Tony Castaneda - Chief of Police, Eagle Pass, Texas
Chief Castaneda testified that ranchers and their families live in fear of drug traffickers trespassing through their private property. He said increasing federal attention to his community would lead to more arrests of drug traffickers.

source:www.fairus.org/Legislation/Legislation.cfm

BTW Ive posted that Im for legal immigration and work visas. What im not for is people just walking over and taking benefits(et al) without any contribution. Dont be fooled into thinking that every illegal alien came to your country looking for opportunity, many come to free loaf of your country.

later,
epic

 

[Humus]

Greece has a GDP per capita of more than $19.000. That is indeed less than in other member states but far from a radical difference. Contrast that to say Poland, where it is $9700 - only slightly more than half!

The difference was larger when they joined. Since then they have received aid from EU and have seen a economic growth larger than the rest of the EU.

The pressure on the social welfare system from local workers who lose their job or don't get one in the first place will hurt. And while the foreign workers pay income taxes in the country where they work, they will generally spend at least part of their income in their home countries. I wouldn't say it will necessarily boost your economy.

How many people do you think will come? The cross-border flow in the EU amounts to 0.1% / year. That is, one guy in 1000 move to another country every year. It will probably increase, but likely not to a point where it's significant.
Still, any effect is also temporary.

It might be if there was an even playing field. It will take a long time however before the cost of living in eastern europe will be comparable to that for the workers in western europe.

Depends on what you call a long time. Many of the new countries have a very strong economic growth, and it will only improve when they get into EU. The baltic countries for instance are growing at 6%. Estonia should be able to catch up pretty well in about 15-20 years.

 

[Humus]

To me this is quite stupid.

To me raising walls to block the border is quite stupid. No, it's outright ridicolous. It's the best way to start a long lasting conflict between the countries. You show that you don't trust them one bit.

Now if some illegal alien tries to come to the US without permission, shouldnt we try to make it as hard as possible ie build the wall the same as you lock your home.

California is the home of 30 million californians. Now if some pesky people from Arizona tries to come to CA, shouldn't they try to make it as hard as possible ie build the wall the same as you lock your home?

Darn, those Arizonians are going to live of our welfare, let's block them from coming here. No, I don't buy the logic of walls and restrictions. Country borders are arbitrary. Just like state borders, county borders etc. Where should we start putting up restrictions? Where do we make a difference between people and people? Why is country border optimal?

BTW Ive posted that Im for legal immigration and work visas. What im not for is people just walking over and taking benefits(et al) without any contribution. Dont be fooled into thinking that every illegal alien came to your country looking for opportunity, many come to free loaf of your country.

If it's possible to get any kind of benefits as an illegal immigrant, then your welfare system is flawed. I'd fix that instead to begin with.
Not to mention that it's pretty prejudiceful to assume that immigrants are more prone to living on welfare then the regular citizens.

No, I say let anyone come. Freely and legally. Don't stop anyone, just register them as regular citizens so they get their rights and duties, like anyone else, then there's no point in going illegally either. People as people, who cares where somebody was born? Just let the capitalistic rules apply.

 

[Mintmaster]

Humus, when are you moving to Canada? I think you'll really like it here, especially if you come to Toronto. I'm a Sikh, and I couldn't think of a much better place in the world to live. In fact, Canada and India have the same number of Sikhs as a percentage of the total population!

My point is that Canada has TONS of immigrants and refugees, yet we have a much lower crime rate and far, far lower homocide rate than the US. To top it off, we have WAY more benefits and social programs. Believe me, there are loads of idiots here complaing about us stealing their jobs and ruining the economy who basically want to turn Canada into the US, but in the end this is a far better society to live in and raise your family.

Building a wall is no more a solution to your problem than invading Iraq as a solution to terrorism. You may get some short term benefit with reduction in immigration, just like you got Lybia to let inspectors in (I think it's just a charade, but that's another matter). Unfortunately, you have infuriated just about every Muslim around the world, and your terrorism problem will now get worse, just as building a wall will infuriate Mexico and it's people. Hell, they'll come over just to spite you.

People coming in from Mexico is not your problem, it's your society. For some reason you have this overwhelming preoccupation with fear and blaming others (especially other races, religions, classes, nations) for your problems, and Humus hits the nail on the head.

He is very right about open borders and preserving trust. It's not going to look good in the short term, but this really is the only way we'll get some long term stability in the world. Put the world in a blender (slowly of course) and we'll have nothing to target. Of course, doing this all immediately is just plain stupid and dangerous, but tightening borders (on every level, from your home to your country) just makes people territorial, paranoid, and vengeful, all attributes that are at the root of many of the worlds conflicts today.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

To top it off, we have WAY more benefits and social programs.

And this is good because? Here in the U.S., we must by definition rely WAY MORE on ourselves vs. being dependent on the government.

Believe me, there are loads of idiots here complaing about us stealing their jobs and ruining the economy who basically want to turn Canada into the US, but in the end this is a far better society to live in and raise your family.

I disagree, though I wonder how you could possibly lump an entire country as a "society", especially when one is as diverse as the U.S.

Unfortunately, you have infuriated just about every Muslim around the world, and your terrorism problem will now get worse, just as building a wall will infuriate Mexico and it's people. Hell, they'll come over just to spite you.

Um, that sounds more like a problem with their society, wouldn't you say?

And no, they don't and won't come here to "spite" us. They flock here in rafts, floating cars, and any means necessary because of the opportunity our society offers them.

He is very right about open borders and preserving trust.

Hello...trust works two ways, does it not?

As in, with "open borders", how far has our trustworthiness gotten us with respect to our neighbors ability to prevent it's own from illegally immigrating? Particularly when our neighbors actions actually encourage immigration to our country?

So, we are supposed to "trust", and yet, we should not expect the favor returned...

I'm not saying building a wall is a good solution...but we certainly need more active clamping down on borders and illegal immigration.

 

[oi]

People as people, who cares where somebody was born?

Unfortunatley alot of people do care. I don't know the exact details of it, but Denmark as an example have (or is trying to get) different rules for becomming a Danish citizen depending on where you're born. Not very suprisingly it's harder to become Danish if you're from the middle east than if you're from the US.

I for one am all for making borders and nationality less important. Unfortunatly this will probably screw our educational system over though, since we'll most likely make it more like the rest of EU to make it easier for international exchange programs and so that your exam won't matter depending on which country you got it in.