Willmeister
Newcomer
I lived outside a major US city for three years, and the amount of fear in Seattle was so much higher than Vancouver it wasn't even funny.
A survey of our American friends and their politcal standing
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I lived outside a major US city for three years, and the amount of fear in Seattle was so much higher than Vancouver it wasn't even funny.
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
Willmeister,
Thankx for responding! I must admit I didn't see you say as much difference as I thought you would. Ok, so Canadians are not unreligious ("Even in a place like Fredericton, where you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a church,") they just don't mix religious and politics ("religon hardly makes it into politics") That is different, but more of a difference would be if Canadians were as a whole not religious.
No supporting facts, it just is? =P
You really lost me here. What am I supposed to be afraid of? Fear is not an emotion that I feel very often at all.
This is kinda funny, people tell us we have no friends, that no one like Americans. I would think that the logical reaction is, "We have no friends, it is us against them". I will say, my perception is that most of the world does not like Americans. I will say that this is a direct result from the media as I have not been out of the country much at all (only to Canada, heheh). I will also say, this saddens me. I think I am a good person, that wishes the best for others. I find joy in the little things in life, in helping others, and I think that I am average American. I wish more people in the world could see the "average" working American. =(
So Willmeister, their are only 3 or 4 basic differences between Americans and Canadians? That doesn't sound like much to me. Really, basic wants and desires are the same are they not? Enough food to not be hungry, someplace to lay our head and shelter ourselves from the elements, being a "good" spouse/parent for our family, having a form of law to protect us, and pursuing happiness to gain memories to cherish in the later years of our life, are these not what you want? Some of our ideologies are different, some of the paths that we want to take to get there are different, but don't we all want the same things? I think that we are very similar, much more similar than different. Maybe we are saying the same things, just our scope of relativity is different?
Feel free to comment,
Dr. Ffreeze
Thankx for responding! I must admit I didn't see you say as much difference as I thought you would. Ok, so Canadians are not unreligious ("Even in a place like Fredericton, where you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a church,") they just don't mix religious and politics ("religon hardly makes it into politics") That is different, but more of a difference would be if Canadians were as a whole not religious.
No supporting facts, it just is? =P
You really lost me here. What am I supposed to be afraid of? Fear is not an emotion that I feel very often at all.
This is kinda funny, people tell us we have no friends, that no one like Americans. I would think that the logical reaction is, "We have no friends, it is us against them". I will say, my perception is that most of the world does not like Americans. I will say that this is a direct result from the media as I have not been out of the country much at all (only to Canada, heheh). I will also say, this saddens me. I think I am a good person, that wishes the best for others. I find joy in the little things in life, in helping others, and I think that I am average American. I wish more people in the world could see the "average" working American. =(
So Willmeister, their are only 3 or 4 basic differences between Americans and Canadians? That doesn't sound like much to me. Really, basic wants and desires are the same are they not? Enough food to not be hungry, someplace to lay our head and shelter ourselves from the elements, being a "good" spouse/parent for our family, having a form of law to protect us, and pursuing happiness to gain memories to cherish in the later years of our life, are these not what you want? Some of our ideologies are different, some of the paths that we want to take to get there are different, but don't we all want the same things? I think that we are very similar, much more similar than different. Maybe we are saying the same things, just our scope of relativity is different?
Feel free to comment,
Dr. Ffreeze
Willmeister said:
Balderdash. Willmeister is clearly a Michael Moore devotee and I bet he has seen Bowling for Columbine like 20 times.
Canadians aren't nearly as anti-American as he portrays. They are nationalistic yes, but you would be too if you were a low population country trying to preserve your cultural identity against a barrage of American media.
Remember, this is the guy who claimed the US was paying every Israeli $21,000 and Germany was paying every Jew $5000. He regurgitates propaganda without thought.
Willmeister
Newcomer
I like how Michael Moore showed the montage of 'fear' in his movie Bowling for Columbine. That's something I never really noticed being in the thick of things in the USA. When you're 'inside', I guess one really can't see what's going on. Looking back, the media coverage was about fear. I'm wondering if this fear is deliberate. You pump people with so much fear that release comes in the form of an advertisement, possibly enhancing the impact of advertising message...
That's true because the media likes to keep things extremely simple and Americans get most of their news from large media conglomerates. These conglomerates span vast areas so they *have* to boil everything down simply just to fill space. They like simplifying things down to such a degree to be IMHO totally childish so they can run one product over the entire nation.
People who travel in general tend to be dickwads and this trancends nationality (poor backpackers excluded). So the only contact people have with Americans is through American foreign policies (done to appease corporate interests), the direct effects of their corporations and dickwad tourists with money. Hardly a flattering portrait of America, or anyone for that matter.
But they're increasing. Fifty years ago, Canadians and Americans were virtually the same but have drifted apart a great deal since.
These are universal aspirations. You never hear how much Americans and the French are similar even though they share these hopes too.
pax said:
Bullshit, I was just in Alberta and I saw homeless people. I saw homeless in Calgary, and I even saw homeless in Jasper. It isn't on the level of San Francisco, but it's there.
People don't starve in the US, that's complete and utter bunk. Not only are food stamps and welfare available, but, for example, in SFC, every homeless person gets free shelter (if they decide to use it) plus $130+ spending cash a month (which they spent on alcohol usually).
The only exception is when you're waiting for welfare paperwork to be processed, you might have to visit a soup kitchen. I know, because I grew up in the inner city in Baltimore lower class.
Crime in the US is also overblown by the media, and you Canadians have swallowed it up too (even then Will complains about fearmongering in the US, he has fallen victim to it) The crime rate in the vast majority of the US is relatively low. It is hotspots that push the national average up. East Palo Alto in CA recently had the highest murder rate in the country, but right next to it in surrounding suburbs, murder is very rare. I have lived in many cities that had 0 murders.
The relatively low population density and white homogeny (compared to US diversity) makes it unlikely they'll be much violent crime anyway. Alberta looks almost unpopulated to me. I drove for days in the Icefield parkway and visited all the areas inbetween Calgary and Jasper, there's very few people compared to say. I saw few if any mexicans or blacks. The underprivileged look primarily to be native indians.
Seattle is often compared to Vancouver, but Seattle has twice the population in a smaller land area, and a much higher concentration of blacks, whereas Vancouver has a higher concentration of Chinese. This accounts for some of the discrepency in the murder rate. (racist? It's statistics. Chinese are statistically more likely to be middle class and non-violent. A high ratio of chinese population correlates with immigrants with high levels of education. The majority of Blacks are usually native born, not African immigrants with Phds)
The other is the extent to which the US Government prosecutes the drug war, sends non-violent offenders to jail to get raped and hardened by the prison system, and then released back onto the streets, coupled with the lucrative drug trade, and high price for drugs, yields a high murder rate in cities, mostly black on black.
The social safety net won't curb this violence, because the violence is not caused by people who need food murdering people to get bread. I grew up in the inner city and I know what happens to welfare checks, I saw it first hand in my sister who has been a heroin addict since her teenage years. She had social security, free education opportunities, free job placement, free drug treatment, but any money from the government was spent on drugs.
The best way to get this violence rate down is to end the war on drugs, just like we put an end to Al Capone-style gangs by ending prohibition. Inner city blacks will no longer be able to make money selling drugs and instead a real job will start to look like a reasonable investment of time (who wants to go to college if you can make thousands a week selling coke from your front door!) Drugs will be safer and less people will die from dealers "cutting" the drugs and diluting them. Possibly, big pharmaceutical companies could even come up with less addicting versions if required by law.
One thing's for certain: prisons make non-violent people violent. Putting non-violent drug offenders into hard jail time just makes more murderers.
Willmeister
Newcomer
Anti-Americanism is on the rise everywhere (even the USA) and it's pretty because of Bush's international forays and media coverage. When the PMO employee came out and said she 'hated' Americans, you'd be surprised how many Canadians actually agreed. I certainly was. Phone in shows had people calling in and writing in and asked her to run for Liberal leader. Celluci's comments and Bush's simplistic speeches and actions really hit a nerve in Canada that I would never have imagined in a million years.
Willmeister
Newcomer
Um, you haven't been to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver (Hongcouver) have you Democoder? I can tell you that for someone who has lived in Vancouver, it's not a 'white' paradise at all. There were more visibly minorities in Vancouver than there were in Seattle (where I lived) or Boston, both comparable in size to Vancouver. As soon as my degree is finished, I'm back in Vancouver as soon as possible. It should also be noted that Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal have very large minority populations and these three cities make up over 30% of our population. 'Rural' Canada isn't exactly the best gauge of Canada's ethnic makeup since few countries are more urbanized than Canada (Israel being the most urbanized). Few immigrants want to move to northern Quebec or Alberta. They want to live in Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal.
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
Willmeister,
Again, maybe we are talking with different scopes. I would say that the French and Americans are similar, so too the Brits, Russians, Australians, and other Western civilization. I would tend to say the same thing of other cultures, but some, especially the 3rd world, are just trying to survive (food/water). I think the world's population share much in common. To me, it seems that other societies or cultures are demonized to easier manipulate by governments / religions. It is much easier to hate "them". It is much easier to wage war on "them". "They" must be different. "We" must be right. I would guess that if you picked an average person that had bad feelings for America, and plopped them in my household they would see that there is really nothing to hate (like or dislike, yes, hate no). I bet if during the Cold War when many Americans despised the Russians, you plopped one of "us" in one of their households there would be nothing found to despise.
When I see all the propaganda that the average Muslim living in the Middle East hears, and hear how they hate the Americans, I look around me and wonder what is to hate. Yes, I understand they might despise some of our governments policies, but my perception is they hate _me_. With the tragic loss of life of 9-11, and _some_ Muslims cheering, I just think that they don't know how much alike we are. I think that Muslims, Jews, and Christians are very much alike, more so than many of them would want to admit.
Dr. Ffreeze
Again, maybe we are talking with different scopes. I would say that the French and Americans are similar, so too the Brits, Russians, Australians, and other Western civilization. I would tend to say the same thing of other cultures, but some, especially the 3rd world, are just trying to survive (food/water). I think the world's population share much in common. To me, it seems that other societies or cultures are demonized to easier manipulate by governments / religions. It is much easier to hate "them". It is much easier to wage war on "them". "They" must be different. "We" must be right. I would guess that if you picked an average person that had bad feelings for America, and plopped them in my household they would see that there is really nothing to hate (like or dislike, yes, hate no). I bet if during the Cold War when many Americans despised the Russians, you plopped one of "us" in one of their households there would be nothing found to despise.
When I see all the propaganda that the average Muslim living in the Middle East hears, and hear how they hate the Americans, I look around me and wonder what is to hate. Yes, I understand they might despise some of our governments policies, but my perception is they hate _me_. With the tragic loss of life of 9-11, and _some_ Muslims cheering, I just think that they don't know how much alike we are. I think that Muslims, Jews, and Christians are very much alike, more so than many of them would want to admit.
Dr. Ffreeze
Willmeister said:
Yeah, Moore is a master of lying with disceptive editing. Frankly, I could edit any footage into a montage to prove any point I want. You have now been "primed" to look for "fear" news stories by Moore so everytime you see them, it merely confirms your theory, and your brain does not count the percentage of time dedicated to "non-fear". This is a well known psychological phenomena.
Moore's theory is predicated on the fact that he started out by assuming that handgun ownership caused violent crime but then was surprised to find out that Canadians are just as much gun nuts as the US, in some areas with higher percentages of ownership.
Not being able to offer another explanation for the difference in statistics (population density, drug war, ethnic strife, trend of upward violence after US Civil War) he chose to blame the media. Despite the fact that negative news reporting is a world wide phenomena, he offered this weak hypothesis up as his explanation.
The big case in the news this week is the Kobe Bryant assault. In Britain, it's David Kelley and the Michael Baldwin case. Frankly, I don't see the difference. But if you are operating on the assumption that American news media is fearmongering and the CBC and BBC aren't, then any even slightly negative story will be amplified, and you'll tend to discount those you see elsewhere.
But this doesn't surprise me, because your posts tend to be biggoted, either against Americans, or Jews, a judgemental personality looking for reasons to classify someone as morally lower than you.
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
Willmeister
I know you didn't say it, but I have yet to be told how I (American) am much different from you (Canadian) so much so as to arrouse hate. Hate is a VERY strong word. I have not been shown why anyone would hate me. Any insite Willmeister?
Dr. Ffreeze
PS. Again, hating a government is much different than hating the people that live in that country.
I know you didn't say it, but I have yet to be told how I (American) am much different from you (Canadian) so much so as to arrouse hate. Hate is a VERY strong word. I have not been shown why anyone would hate me. Any insite Willmeister?
Dr. Ffreeze
PS. Again, hating a government is much different than hating the people that live in that country.
Actually whites are a minority now in Toronto. Majority are Asian, then middle eastern and white are neck and neck. (As reported by CTV a few months back)
Our gov't is looking at forcing new immigrants to live in a city that is not Vancouver, Toronto, or Montreal for their first 5 years. IMO, this is a good thing (ofcourse, I also think that 'multiculturalism' is a sham, but hey).
Willmeister said:
I go to Vancouver every year for atleast two days before heading off to Whistler for skiing.
Puh-lease. Vancouver has 16,000 blacks in a city of 1.8 million, less than 1%. The bulk of the minority population is Asian. Seattle also is 30% minority, but only 13% Asian. It's 8.5% black and 5.2% latino.
For comparison, over 50% of San Francisco, Sacremento, and San Jose is minority. Where I currently live, Asians make up 40% and where I am moving in November (Santa Clara) it's 68% Asian. http://www.apiahf.org/programs/acciss/accis_powerpoint402_28.htm
Canada is a very whitebread country compared to the US, and it's urban areas are very sanitized to say the least.
Just for curiousity, why aren't your studying in Canada?
And those cities are whitewashed compared to US cities like Oakland, where 35% of the population is black, and 21% of latino, and only 31% is white. Or New York and Washington DC. There are more blacks in New York City than all of Vancouver's population together.
The California Bay Area doesn't even need a Chinatown, the entire area IS a China town.
But in any case, you're making my points for me. Canada's urban areas have higher concentrations of Asians, and lower concentrations of blacks and latinos.
Willmeister said:
How on earth do you judge collective fear? This is ridiculous. I am sure i could point to some city somewhere else in the US or in the rest of the world with less "fear" then Vancouver. Could i then claim your culture is a cultural of fear?Newsbreak: I have lived in the US all of my life. America is not a culture of fear. the concept of "culture of fear" is relative and more driven by the media and propaganda then anything of substance.
Exactly what constitutes a culture of fear?
I fear the culture in the yoghurt I bought 3 months ago and is now lurking in the back of my fridgerator
Michael Moore is an absolute crackhead. He is dishonet and misinformed.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
This link further explains the kind of bunk Moore foists on his viewers. This is in support of the statements Democoder has made.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
This link further explains the kind of bunk Moore foists on his viewers. This is in support of the statements Democoder has made.
DemoCoder,
You're not listening. Where the majority of ethnics in the US are black and/or Mexican, in Canada its Asians and middle-eastern.
Like I said, Toronto = white minority. I don't know about Vancouver and Montreal, but I expect Vancouver is almost majority Asian as well. Due to the Quebec gov'ts agressive anti-immigration stance, most of the province is whitebread, but Montreal is said to be heavily middle-eastern.
These three cities is where you see Canada's heavy immigration policy in effect - the rest of the coutnry is generations old white.
You're not listening. Where the majority of ethnics in the US are black and/or Mexican, in Canada its Asians and middle-eastern.
Like I said, Toronto = white minority. I don't know about Vancouver and Montreal, but I expect Vancouver is almost majority Asian as well. Due to the Quebec gov'ts agressive anti-immigration stance, most of the province is whitebread, but Montreal is said to be heavily middle-eastern.
These three cities is where you see Canada's heavy immigration policy in effect - the rest of the coutnry is generations old white.
Willmeister
Newcomer
When you're so scared of your own shadow, you pull a gun...
Willmeister
Newcomer
Depends on just what part of the GVRD you're talking about though. Same goes for Toronto and Montreal.
It's also more than just immigration policy. If you're coming from India, do you want to live in Sydney or Moose Jaw? No, you move to areas with already large populations from India. You'll also move to areas where employment would be more likely to obtain. This effect is the same anywhere there's immigration. How many visible minorities are in rural Britain compared to larger centres for example?
The graph you link to say that the Asian population has risen by 68% from 1990 to 2000, not that 68% of the population is Asian.DemoCoder said:
According to http://www.sccgov.org/channel/0,4770,chid%3D22324%26sid%3D10710,00.html 26% of Santa Claras population is Asian.
Sorry to nitpick.