A survey of our American friends and their politcal standing
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Legion said:
If you don't know how people vote, ME = sqrt(1/N) where N is the sample size.
If you do know how people voted, formula is ME = 2 * sqrt(p * (1-p) / N) where p is the percentage that voted for candidate X.
Since P =~ 0.5, we have 2 * sqrt(0.5 * 0.5 / N) = sqrt(4 * 0.25/N) = sqrt(1/N), or same as the first formula.
Willmeister said:
Only if you think massacring peasants for "hoarding" and starving millions of Ukranians can be deemed a "success". Or concentrating on a single industry (e.g. steel) to the exclusion of all else.
The economic growth figures are irrelevent since if your economy is in the shithole, it is quite easy to see high levels of GDP growth with modest improvements. The challenge of course is what to do later. Like losing weight, the first couple of pounds are easily no matter what diet you chose as long as you have a diet, but continuing to lose weight and keeping it off is a larger challenge.
pax said:
Yes yes, but how do you plan to *POLITICALLY* cause this to come about. It will happen naturally as manufacturing technology continues to improve and fewer and fewer people are needed to produce goods for everytime (the limit being complete automation or nanotechnology)
But you claimed we need a political revolution, and I ask simply, what will this revolution DO? I don't want to hear what their aims are (less hours, etc), I want to hear how they are going to implement it.
This revolution will sit around on internet chat boards and plan rally's to vandalize starbucks.
Just you wait, it'll happen!
Just you wait, it'll happen!
Well politically itll have to be some increased involvement in the democratic process. As people see the economic evolution of society to the continuing benefit of investors and detriment of work (probably because mainly of steady technological improvements) they will demand sources of income outside of work.
Investigation of what it means to be a citizen and what the country's wealth actually is. As people leave work or see the value of their work as less and less they will expect gov to assume investment portfolios for them and assume the gov will.
I dont know the critical mass of unemployment before social instability becomes too great but I cant see gov and business allow too much of it before they agree to some kind of solution. I epxect it will be a world of much worse welath discrepeancies and very minimal incomes from gov. If people can get the basics they rarely take to the streets. And itll be easily affordable to provide that BUT a world without or rather with less and less work will be a paradigm shift. People will spend much more time learning and asking more questions...
Itd make for a good sci-fi story...
But demo how do you see the evolution of the economy in the next century? Do you honestly think the great american middle class will quietly slide into poverty as their work becomes valueless?
Investigation of what it means to be a citizen and what the country's wealth actually is. As people leave work or see the value of their work as less and less they will expect gov to assume investment portfolios for them and assume the gov will.
I dont know the critical mass of unemployment before social instability becomes too great but I cant see gov and business allow too much of it before they agree to some kind of solution. I epxect it will be a world of much worse welath discrepeancies and very minimal incomes from gov. If people can get the basics they rarely take to the streets. And itll be easily affordable to provide that BUT a world without or rather with less and less work will be a paradigm shift. People will spend much more time learning and asking more questions...
Itd make for a good sci-fi story...
But demo how do you see the evolution of the economy in the next century? Do you honestly think the great american middle class will quietly slide into poverty as their work becomes valueless?
Well, I am certainly not the pessimist you are. Unemployment has been much worse in the past. You see the glass half empty, I see it half full.
The question is, will less work lead to more stability, or even more radicalism and violence, as people flail around with a purpose in life that work gave them.
It may have been nomadic cultures could get away without working in very low population density isolated conditions and no modern media, but what will happen when idle people sit around thinking all day in modern society with mass communications and crowded conditions? A certain percentage will become hedonists, wallowing in the glut of post-scarcity. But Apollonian types will want for lack of purpose, become disgruntled, and seek to upset the system.
Want a preview? Check your college campus.
I'm a bit too tired (been up alnite working) to keep responding, but I'll give you my "futurist" outlook tommorow. I just don't think that urbanites are ready to go back to being hunter-gatherers in a high-tech garden of Eden.
I myself would never stop working. Since a young age, I have figured that life is too short and I have a limited time (even if being extended) on this planet, and I'd like to spend it accomplishing things (even if it is ultimately meaningless when the universe ends), instead of tuning out. As the saying goes, work hard, play hard. I work extremely long hours, but then go on extreme vacations.
The question is, will less work lead to more stability, or even more radicalism and violence, as people flail around with a purpose in life that work gave them.
It may have been nomadic cultures could get away without working in very low population density isolated conditions and no modern media, but what will happen when idle people sit around thinking all day in modern society with mass communications and crowded conditions? A certain percentage will become hedonists, wallowing in the glut of post-scarcity. But Apollonian types will want for lack of purpose, become disgruntled, and seek to upset the system.
Want a preview? Check your college campus.
I'm a bit too tired (been up alnite working) to keep responding, but I'll give you my "futurist" outlook tommorow. I just don't think that urbanites are ready to go back to being hunter-gatherers in a high-tech garden of Eden.
I myself would never stop working. Since a young age, I have figured that life is too short and I have a limited time (even if being extended) on this planet, and I'd like to spend it accomplishing things (even if it is ultimately meaningless when the universe ends), instead of tuning out. As the saying goes, work hard, play hard. I work extremely long hours, but then go on extreme vacations.
Well work is not a prob for our generation still tho the process is well underway.
However to say some will want to continue to work is to assume their work will be needed at all... just about any job can already be foreseen for automation... Except exploration. That activity without the human element in the loop is hard to accept. How to respect individual freedoms while disdaining idleness is gonna be tough.
Hedonism will be difficult if incomes are bare minimum which is the eternal desire of the investor.
College campuses will probably more active too. While they still exist. But will business want to pay tax to support educating people it doesnt need? Its the transition into preserving such things as education and health care for the masses that will decide if we talk about revolution or evolution.
I think we need ot make room for human activities for the masses that are currently the domain of small professions. From acting\art to seeking understanding and exploring the universe. But I can see the conflcit betwen the investor class that doesnt care about any kind of ressoureces devoted to making access to such activities to the masses. They will always see any impediment to their property\wealth as unfair taxation of some sort or other. Never seeing the fact such a potentially fantastic workless society would have never been possible had it not really been a collective effort of all involved.
I think we'll get there I just worry about the transition, that our predominantly capitalistic society's wavering acceptance, of a sense of community and inclusiveness as production with the basic technologies in place increases on a geometric rate. Its already incredibly high.
However to say some will want to continue to work is to assume their work will be needed at all... just about any job can already be foreseen for automation... Except exploration. That activity without the human element in the loop is hard to accept. How to respect individual freedoms while disdaining idleness is gonna be tough.
Hedonism will be difficult if incomes are bare minimum which is the eternal desire of the investor.
College campuses will probably more active too. While they still exist. But will business want to pay tax to support educating people it doesnt need? Its the transition into preserving such things as education and health care for the masses that will decide if we talk about revolution or evolution.
I think we need ot make room for human activities for the masses that are currently the domain of small professions. From acting\art to seeking understanding and exploring the universe. But I can see the conflcit betwen the investor class that doesnt care about any kind of ressoureces devoted to making access to such activities to the masses. They will always see any impediment to their property\wealth as unfair taxation of some sort or other. Never seeing the fact such a potentially fantastic workless society would have never been possible had it not really been a collective effort of all involved.
I think we'll get there I just worry about the transition, that our predominantly capitalistic society's wavering acceptance, of a sense of community and inclusiveness as production with the basic technologies in place increases on a geometric rate. Its already incredibly high.
Forbidden Donut
Newcomer
Well, I just noticed this thread, and haven't had time to read the whole thing yet, because I need to get ready for work, but I voted for Democrat. I'm registered as a Democrat for the sole purpose of being able to vote in the Democratic primaries, otherwise I would register as Independent. I pay very close attention to the political scene, and I try to vote simply for the person who I agree with on the most issues and who I feel is intelligent and adaptive enough to work through various situations.
That said, I'm politically quite liberal. I can't remember the last time I voted for a republican, simply because I don't agree with their philosophy. And don't get me started on Bush. I swear if that monkey gets re-elected I'm gonna pay an extended visit to our neighbors to the north.
That said, I'm politically quite liberal. I can't remember the last time I voted for a republican, simply because I don't agree with their philosophy. And don't get me started on Bush. I swear if that monkey gets re-elected I'm gonna pay an extended visit to our neighbors to the north.
Willmeister
Newcomer
Those weren't Five Year plans though. Stalin just had Kulaks and Ukranians liquidated and any excuse would do.
Willmeister
Newcomer
'Work' will always be around because it can be used to establish a social hierarchy. Look at one of the first questions people are asked once they first meet: "What do you do?" The asker of this question is 9 times out of 10 figuring out the other person's worth and how they themselves rate against it...
Or perhaps they're engaging in chit chat and attempting to find more things to talk about?Willmeister said:
Or is everything a class struggle in New Brunswick?
RussSchultz said:
lol, no mostly just on the university campus but it does spew onto the street. I call them urban rednex.
EDIT: though in Fredericton you ether have a "good job" meaning you are employed by the government or you are in the private sector which from the perspective of the former an unfavorable fate.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Sabastian said:lol, no mostly just on the university campus but it does spew onto the street. I call them urban rednex.
Heh...not too much different in the States. How does the saying go?
"If you're under 20 years old and a conservative, then you are heartless...if you're over 30 and are a liberal, then you are brainless."
Joe DeFuria said:Sabastian said:lol, no mostly just on the university campus but it does spew onto the street. I call them urban rednex.
Heh...not too much different in the States. How does the saying go?
"If you're under 20 years old and a conservative, then you are heartless...if you're over 30 and are a liberal, then you are brainless."
Something like that, I remember it more like this: If you are a young man and be fond of socialism, you have a heart. If by the time you are 30 and still be fond of socialism you have no brain.
No matter though. Always liked the spirit of that one.
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
pax
Thankx for clarifying. Starving (i.e. death), is much different than malnutrition.
Back to the original comment that started this mini-thread. You commented how Canadian middle class was a bit better than American middle class because you didn't let the lower classes starve. Well, we covered the starving issue, so that is a moot point.
You seem to think that I, being middle class, am somehow responsible for the poor and homeless, therefore because Canadians have less poor, you are somehow better off. Well, I don't see it that way. I am responsible for myself. They are responsible for themselves. I am not a hypocrite so when I was poor, I was still responsible for myself. I didn't try and blame my life's woes on others. If you don't work, you are poor. If you don't educate yourself with marketable desirable job skills, then you are more likely to be poor.
I contend that Canadian and American middle classes are very much alike. The amount of poor and homelessness might larger in America, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Dr. Ffreeze
PS. I would like to say that just because I think all people should take responsibility for their actions (rich and poor), that I don't wish to lend a helping hand to those in need. I just don't see it as my duty or responsibility to be mandated by others.
Thankx for clarifying. Starving (i.e. death), is much different than malnutrition.
Back to the original comment that started this mini-thread. You commented how Canadian middle class was a bit better than American middle class because you didn't let the lower classes starve. Well, we covered the starving issue, so that is a moot point.
You seem to think that I, being middle class, am somehow responsible for the poor and homeless, therefore because Canadians have less poor, you are somehow better off. Well, I don't see it that way. I am responsible for myself. They are responsible for themselves. I am not a hypocrite so when I was poor, I was still responsible for myself. I didn't try and blame my life's woes on others. If you don't work, you are poor. If you don't educate yourself with marketable desirable job skills, then you are more likely to be poor.
I contend that Canadian and American middle classes are very much alike. The amount of poor and homelessness might larger in America, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Dr. Ffreeze
PS. I would like to say that just because I think all people should take responsibility for their actions (rich and poor), that I don't wish to lend a helping hand to those in need. I just don't see it as my duty or responsibility to be mandated by others.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Dr. Ffreeze said:
What's really a shame is that you HAVE to put such a disclaimer in your post, because you know the lefties will take your post completely out of context and claim how heartless you are...
Joe DeFuria said:Sabastian said:lol, no mostly just on the university campus but it does spew onto the street. I call them urban rednex.
Heh...not too much different in the States. How does the saying go?
"If you're under 20 years old and a conservative, then you are heartless...if you're over 30 and are a liberal, then you are brainless."
i prefer logical to heartless.