A new era...

I think we'll see affordable robots for home before 2010. The robots I'm talking about are the kind with wheels but have face and voice recognition and can be used as a companion for kids to talk to and play. It can also serve as an electronic 'watchdog' too where it can contact authorities wirelessly or send images from it's vision sensors to the appropriate authorites etc. I think by 2050 we'll see a lot of C3PO type robots everywhere, however, I don't see them driving cars as cars will be driving themselves by 2050 using GPS and embedded road sensors sonar etc. ;)

My predictions are based on research done by NEC which can be found here:

http://www.incx.nec.co.jp/robot/index.html

Their robot looks to be ready for market acceptance very soon and affordable too. It looks like a toy but it has the most advanced voice and facial recognition technology to date.

Regarding the prediction of robots displacing human workers etc. If the majority of the population is unemployed who is going to buy the products and services created by those robots? If demand for products and services goes down how will these companies continue to stay in business?
 
We'll have flying cars in the year 2000!


Oh....wait...


(This whole "robotic servent" thing has been touted for over half a century and its never come true. I don't doubt that someday it might happen, but likely not in the way anybody predicts, or when anybody predicts)
 
This whole "robotic servent" thing has been touted for over half a century and its never come true. I don't doubt that someday it might happen, but likely not in the way anybody predicts, or when anybody predicts)

Well, multi-petaflop power in the desktop will be available in a few decades at most. So what's to stop companies from using such power in robots?

Better cheaper magnets(necessary for better cheaper small motors), better forms of energy storage, and ridiculous computer power.... robots that can do ur chores(take out the garbage, clean ur room, etc.), will obviously be here sooner than most think.... But something tells me they won't be smart for quite some time.

The automated cars are coming as PC-engine said(nigh 0 accidents)... medicine will slowly wipe out most diseases.... we'll have automated quite a lot of stuff... hmmm, there seems to be a small prob...

Pop. Growth!!!!
 
Pop growth? In practically every modern economy demographics are collapsing. Unless you mean lack of population growth... I blame roughly equally economics (fear of poverty\loss of income) and social issues (careering and quality of life) for that problem.
 
Ludicrous pax. How is that you always come to the exactly wrong conclusion? (e.g. the one that supports your completely incorrect economic theories) No one studying population growth seriously thinks it is FEAR OF POVERTY that causes low population growth. It is wealth and education.


Did you ever stop to think that since

a) the shift from agrarian/developing society no longer requires a large family workforce (e.g. child labor in agrarian farm societies)
b) modern medicine allows people to delay childbirth much longer
c) educated people delay marriage and childbirth until late 20s and 30s because
d) people want to spend more time on THEMSELVES, in the career, traveling around, having fun and finally
e) that many people no long feel the need to "pass on" their genes and live on vicariously
f) the rights of liberated women not to be simply life long incubation chambers

is responsible for the reduction of pop growth below replacement rate?

Even having 2 children per family leads to a shrinking population. You need to have atleast 3 children per family (or "2.1") to cause an increase. Who wants to have such a big family nowadays? It's certainly not loss of income that's driving it.

I could afford to take care of like 10 kids personally, but my wife and I want no more than 1 or 2. Why? Because I think it is irresponsible to have so many, not just to the planet, but because it divides your time amongst the children, and I personally want to maximize the time I spend guiding my child.

It is in fact, poverty that drives childbirth. Even in the non-agrarian US, the lower classes have a much higher birth rate, and that is because of less opportunities for women to be anything but baby machines.


On automation, I love it. I love self-checking myself out at Home Depot and Walmart. I hate dealing with customer service reps. I love online technical support, I hate phone support. I love self-service gas, I hate full service. Only place I desire personal human service is health care, restaurant, hotel, etc

At McDonalds, why should someone be paid $5-6hr to press buttons on the cash register and swipe my card, when I could just swipe my credit card and press "#3 meal" on the thing myself.

This is no difference than "automated teller machines" which replaced the need to physically go to a human bank teller to withdraw cash. Now those tellers handle more sophisicated queries, like opening accounts, selling loans, etc.


Anytime efficiency is increased, it is a net win for everyone. There are two ways you can get wealth: one, invest in scarcity. (e.g. buy real estate, as population grows, demand rises, but supply is fixed. This makes everyone who is a home buyer poorer) Second, invest in efficiency.

Being able to produce more with less lowers scarcity, preserves the environment, conserves resources, makes things cheaper and more plentiful. It lives all boats. If I invent a new technology that can produce any product with half the amount of resources, it would be like doubling the amount of resources in the earth, or halving the amount of wilderness that has to be disturbed.

Automation causes disruptions. Some McDonalds employees with have to be let go, but the remaining employees could get more benefit, since they are handling more customers per person, as well as people who hold McDonalds stock getting a greater ROI.


I am in the tech industry. Alot of crappy low level programming (like web page authoring and VB apps) are being outsourced to India now. If one day my job gets outsourced, then I have not succeeded in raising my skill levels high enough to justify my salary level. I have personally prepared for this by getting into BioInformatics which I believe will be the next big tech boom (biology + computation) If I'm wrong, I will have to go do something else.

But my personal opinion is, if your job can be automated, or some other person comes along and offers to do your job at the same skill level for a lower price, you have no RIGHT to block it.

You have no fundamental right to make me pay you $5/hr to get a hamburger when I could pay 50cents to an automated machine. My goal is to get a hamburger, not subsidize a dead end career.
 
I swear to God Democoder, it is as if some people here were educated at the French University of Socialist and Communist Propaganda.
 
Im not against any tech improvement demo... Nor did I imply that in my post. And as for facts about why demographics are imploding in every modern country without regard to culture Im only reporting what Ive been told when asking about why some arent having kids and what Ive read. Quite a few studies have mentionned fear (even if only perceptual) of poverty as a reason in todays modern economy to not have kids or not too many. Its of crouse among many reasons.

Poverty is also a matter of reference. The poorest westerner today is much richer and has a better life expectancy than some of the richest only a couple gens ago. But ask any pregnant teenager or young woman why she doesnt want to have the kid. You choose through your distorted ideological frame to color every subject with it and it shows here in your refusing to allow one of the reasons for demographic collapse.

I very well know and didnt feel to digress the various causes of demographic collapse we are experiencing. I think my short post was short but pretty clear and covered what you said in more detail. I only wanted to know if zidane at least knew that we didnt have a pop issue other than one of dropping demographics.

Certainly many people in the middle class dont see poverty as an issue. Or fear it from having kids. But as you go down the income ladder you meet a LOT of people who argue the cost of kids. Heck I know 3 couples who openly said they are limiting or not having kids because cost and income was an issue as well as time (due to low income jobs leaving little time to raise kids)... They had dual incomes of less than 60g gross a year in their cases...

Any technological improvement is good. Ive only ever argued when those improvements had too much a disruptive effect on society and where gov and business have responsibility in avoiding too much harm in the transition. And even then I want in every way possible to allow changes to take place as fast as possible. The greatest blessing of technology is to free mankind of the drudgery and boredom of work. Repetitive and long term manual labor has probably done more harm to peoples intellect and health and the possiblity of them growing than most things in life.

I was making a joke btw as its common to tell people who are unemployed who wait long times to re enter the workforce that they should not live off welfare and go flip burgers if worse comes to worse.
 
Legion said:
I swear to God Democoder, it is as if some people here were educated at the French University of Socialist and Communist Propaganda.

You do know there are countries a lot more socialist than France eh?... I swear so many want a new enemy to galvanize the US its not funny. Will it ever again be possible for America to be motivated to get up in the morning without a 'dangerous' antagonist, real or imagined, standing across from the table?
 
Well atleast we are in agreeement on this:

1) investments or resources put into increasing efficiency are good for everyone. Good for the economy, good for the environment. Technological improvements are non-zero sum.

2) investments or resources put into increasing scarcity are zero sum. While I don't think they should be banned, personally, I only care about working on things I know will lead to a general improvement of the human condition.

3) efficiency can free up "physical resources" (e.g. energy, materials, etc) but it can also free up human resources (e.g. labor)
This causes a disruption in society because human beings cannot "repurpose" themselves to change as fast as technology is changing.

However

4) the technological changes to efficiency are a good that outweighs the bad, making life better for many in the current generation, and the next. The "profit" or "savings" from advancements in technology should be reinvested into "healing" the "disruptions" caused.

That means worker retraining, and it means turning people who can no longer operate modern machinery into investors who own the machinery.

As a small government libertarian, even I can see that we face a fundamental proposition: a hugely unemployed class of people means we must spend money on one of two things: More Prisons or More Schools. Personally, I'd rather have people in school and have them on the street or in prison, since either way, I'm going to pay

Also, it has to be recognized that as automation progresses further (nanotechnology, robots, AI, etc) human beings will end up as welfare beneficiaries of robots.

See Hans Moravec's "Age of Robots" for a treatise on what this means. But in general, if 90% of the population were unemployed and robots made virtually everything, human beings would essentially be hunter-gatherers in a garden of eden, and robots would be churning away night and day working for the permentally retired class.

I see no contradiction between capitalism and this, since if scarcity is eliminated, there is no real resources to "allocate" by an economic system. Whether technology can eliminate scarcity completely, or human beings will invent new categories of things which are scare, remains to be seen.
 
pax said:
Legion said:
I swear to God Democoder, it is as if some people here were educated at the French University of Socialist and Communist Propaganda.

You do know there are countries a lot more socialist than France eh?... I swear so many want a new enemy to galvanize the US its not funny. Will it ever again be possible for America to be motivated to get up in the morning without a 'dangerous' antagonist, real or imagined, standing across from the table?

You do know i was being sarcastic correct? :rolleyes:

The US really doesn't have much to worry about from the EU states who feel the need to antagonize the US. Why would they?

Politically countries love to ridicule the US but love to have our donations. Why do so many liberals think their opinion is in the majority? I think they have been deluded by their propaganda.
 
Legion, well definitely in America the expressed political opinion isnt majority liberal...

Agree largely with you there demo except on scarcity. There will always be scarcity even with huge technological improvements tho future scarcity will be in the form not of hunger of the stomach but hunger of the intellect. As in who will have access to sufficient tech and ressources to be able to engage in things like intellectual pursuits... Im not too crazy to think all my kids will be able to do is hunt and gather hhe... Unless Im missing something in that example...

We have no scarcity in food yet a billion starve (we can feed 10-12 billion with current production). Feeding the world should be a blip on the economic radar. George Carlin had a great comedy routine linked with that. I dont want to be too down on humanity. I just hate having to wait ages and generations when things can get done now.

Def in the future things could become more and more a question of personal drive to improve oneself. As freedom from providing essentials for oneself become less and less important. I agree no economic system will prevail in the long term but will be rendered irrelevant by technology. That capitalism is the fastest route to that future there is little doubt. What I see as social democracy (such as your schools vs prisons) isnt the removal of capitalism but its protection from its own excesses which can derail this pursuit of civilisation.

Im not always so sure we are pursuing more schools vs prisons nowadays. Costs for higher education has skyrocketed in Canada over the last 20 years seemingly as society expresses the need for fewer and fewer grads in some disciplines...
 
I only wanted to know if zidane at least knew that we didnt have a pop issue other than one of dropping demographics.

What I mean is in the future, as we progress, in the long run with most forms of deaths eliminated, it presents a prob.

That is to say: Do you think that will be the case once, all those cancer deaths, cardiac arrest deaths, accident deaths, viral/bacterial deaths, (lack)organ transplant death, aging, etc... go away?
 
Well we are looking centuries down the road if you add biological immortality in there. But current trends are disquieting if they persist as to where human popualtion will stand a century from now. Dependant on how fast the rest of the planet finally gets modernized but I expect population drops as fast in the 2nf half of the 21st as the 20th had growth...
 
Reading those articles makes me very scared. Only because it's probably going to happen. It's like the terminator without the violence. Very scary.
 
Well we are looking centuries down the road if you add biological immortality in there. But current trends are disquieting if they persist as to where human popualtion will stand a century from now. Dependant on how fast the rest of the planet finally gets modernized but I expect population drops as fast in the 2nf half of the 21st as the 20th had growth...

Well, by the latter half of this century(provided we find a way to keep advancing our computing tech.) I'll probably be able to simulate an entire cell in real-time in my house with common tech of the time....

I expect tissue engineering, will make it possible to survive almost any organ prob., and automated cars should already be in the streets by then. Medical advances should mean we'd have the means to deal with most diseases by then.

As for taking 'centuries' for indefinite longevity, I'd say at most the first half of the next century. Knowledge in the field of genetics is doubling every five years... 100yrs = 2^20 current knowledge. In about two decades most researchers will be able to model protein folding in their homes in real-time... multi-exaflop supercomputers will also be a reality by then... There are organisms with similar metabolic rates(or whatever the word is.) but diverging lifespans of about one order of magnitude... there exist many genetic similarities among organisms...

Here's a nice recent article from msnbc:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/948283.asp?0bl=-0

edited
 
zidane1strife said:
and automated cars should already be in the streets by then.

As in..."Punch in the destination into the computer, and then go to sleep?"

I don't see that happening anytime remotely soon. Not because we don't have the technology to reasonably do that (we do), but no one is going to "trust" the car to do that. And the auto industry? They get sued enough as it is for things way beyond their reasonable control...you think they're even entertaining the idea of being held "responsible" for the car that drove off a cliff due to some glitch? :oops:
 
...you think they're even entertaining the idea of being held "responsible" for the car that drove off a cliff due to some glitch?

Well a few months ago I saw one of those Tv doc.s about car tech. and where it's headed. They expected (If I'm not mistaken.) first models by late 30s to mid 40s, after a few decades, I'd say they'd be the majority.
 
zidane1strife said:
Well a few months ago I saw one of those Tv doc.s about car tech. and where it's headed. They expected (If I'm not mistaken.) first models by late 30s to mid 40s, after a few decades, I'd say they'd be the majority.

That would be very cool...would make the 1000 mile annual trek to Wisconsin much easier. ;)

I just don't see it happening. Or at best, I'd guess it might be limited to specific highways or interstates. Here's to hoping!
 
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