A musing on the prices of consoles

[Crayon]

This whole discussion is exactly what I thought this thread was supposed to illuminate: that trying to compare the two systems feature for feature and dollar for dollar misses the point. Microsoft and Sony are operating under two different pricing models and trying to force one model into the other leads to endless, cyclical debates.

I'd say that nit-picking details like lithium batteries that may or may not outlast the buttons on the controller (controllers eventually break) leads to endless, cyclical debates.

Some great discussion going on, but too much tit-for-tat bickering in between!

 

[Diamond.G]

Actually, now that you mention it, you're 100% right. That was his reasoning and he couldn't find a hard drive in stores to buy...I've always disagreed with Microsoft dividing up the initial launch with core units. I understand they needed to set the expectation that core units are out there, but at launch I would expect close to 100% of buyers would want the premium. Why not wait several months to release it, then?

I think the Elite unveiling has mostly answered the question of why they couldn't just wait to unveil the core later.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Isnt this a versus thread?

 

[Crayon]

You can make any thread into a versus thread. I'm sure you've noticed.

Lately I'm more interested in findig a way to stop every thread from becoming a versus thread.

 

[-tkf-]

Regardless, then one would need to add in the price of the "replacement battery". This was the whole point; someone was trying to argue that you have to add in the cost of the rechargeable battery or the cost of the warranty to the Xbox 360.

Well if i buy a rechargeable kit for another console i at some point have to buy new batteries for that as well... ehmm what is your point?

I was pointing out that you don´t need to buy a NEW sixaxis controller when the battery is dead but you can just replace the battery.

You do realize that MS fixes these consoles for free right?

Not all consoles afaik, at least i have read plenty of complaints about people that didn´t get theirs fixed for free because they didn´t qualify. Maybe they were unlucky or something.

 

[-tkf-]

Which is why I think that Sony shouldn't try to push the PS3 as a gaming system. Yes we all know it's the Playstation, but the Playstation isn't worth 600 dollars to me as a videogame system. What there are 3-4 must own games? Sony should be throwing up commercials about the photos and the web browsing and the music and all the other things it can do. We all know it can play videogames, show us something else. They could have had a sale (my inlaws, whom make a grip of money) when they were looking for a replacement dvd player. They didn't bite cause Sony hadn't shown them all the things they can do with the system.

Do you remember the Amiga, it was the computer that could do it all but Commodore never really knew what to do with it. It ended up being a bit of this and a bit of that but mostly Games but it wasn´t thanks to Commodore.

Sony has to focus on the PS3 being what it is, an incredible powerfull platform for games. Everything else they add is just bonus value that taps and uses the platforms CPU and Graphics power for added value.

And the more i use the machine the more i think they got it right. The user experience is just so well thought out. The other day i pressed the PS button on the controller, thinking "maybe it turns on the console" (no i dont read manuals) pling, it did. When i i watch a Blu-Ray movie and jump back to the XMB, and later returns to the movie.. it picks up where i left off. The same goes for the 25 clips i have stored on the HD, it picks up where i left them. The portray mode in the slideshow actually adds functionalty to the slideshow function. And everything in the XMB is done at blazing speeds. Plug in a USB keyboard and it just "works", same goes for USB drives/Sticks and memory cards, those things seems more smooth than my Windows XP Just loads of small stuff that makes it a pleasure to use.

Btw, it´s a $500 console.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony has to focus on the PS3 being what it is, an incredible powerfull platform for games. Everything else they add is just bonus value that taps and uses the platforms CPU and Graphics power for added value.

That's exactly what went wrong with the Amiga! It was a very powerful machine, but it's identity was limited by a perception it was a games machine. Only the TV industry really got past that (like the music industry adopted ST). The rest of the world bought expensive and less able PCs because they were 'business machines', and not 'games machines'. The Amiga should have been pushed as far more diverse than a games machine, with massive marketting to penetrate the IBM mindset. Then it'd still be around today! Instead all it's potential when mostly by the wayside.

As long as PS3 is seen as 'a games machine with other stuff', it's not price competitive with other games machines. You're stuck trying to convince people PS3 is worth the premium for it's better games, yet at the moment XB360 is often surpassing PS3 in that side! Sony need to promote it as an all-round device, that'll only spend some of it's time playing games, and then reach out to the non-gamers out there who have iPods and DVD players and are looking at HDTVs. They'll buy a fancy device as long as it can do more than just play games. This is certainly how Sony have positioned themselves. They need to start work on the marketting, and adding as much extra and useful functionality as possible, in exactly the same way they haven't on PSP.

 

[-tkf-]

That's exactly what went wrong with the Amiga! It was a very powerful machine, but it's identity was limited by a perception it was a games machine.

As long as PS3 is seen as 'a games machine with other stuff', it's not price competitive with other games machines. You're stuck trying to convince people PS3 is worth the premium for it's better games, yet at the moment XB360 is often surpassing PS3 in that side! Sony need to promote it as an all-round device, that'll only spend some of it's time playing games, and then reach out to the non-gamers out there who have iPods and DVD players and are looking at HDTVs. They'll buy a fancy device as long as it can do more than just play games. This is certainly how Sony have positioned themselves. They need to start work on the marketting, and adding as much extra and useful functionality as possible, in exactly the same way they haven't on PSP.

Wasn´t the amiga marketed as a "can do everything" buisness machine but it also lost it´s focus that way, don´t recall seing it marketed as a games machine but then, it´s been a long time

http://www.geekrant.org/files/2005/amiga.jpg

Promoting the PS3 as a all round device would be a step in the wrong direction imho, rather Console with benefits than, General Device with games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wasn´t the amiga marketed as a "can do everything" buisness machine but it also lost it´s focus that way, don´t recall seing it marketed as a games machine but then, it´s been a long time

For a while, but the software wasn't there. If Commodore had provided the software to make it useful, and compatible with IBM file-formats (big issue preventing integration into existing systems), it would have got a better start. As it was, the software that appeared on the machine that stood out was the games and graphics stuff. The business software didn't get very far, and the machine appeared lop-sided in abilities as a result.

Promoting the PS3 as a all round device would be a step in the wrong direction imho, rather Console with benefits than, General Device with games.

I disagree. The PS brand was intended to mean more than just games, and this is the best opportunity to break that stereotype. Sony want people to consider PS as an option whether they're looking to play games, movies, distribute media throughout the house, etc. The brand needs to be perceived as as strong in those fields as gaming. That's where it's strongest and most economical. That's why Sony have added the hardware they have, and priced it how they have. XB360 is a games console with other stuff. Competing with the same identity and higher pricepoint is going to be tough for PS3. Set itself apart as a one-box-does-all solution defines PS's place in the home and promotes it's appeal to everyone, including those that don't care for games.

 

[Mintmaster]

Some of you guys are really overestimating the cost of owning a 360.

For batteries, I bought 48 alkalines for $5. I got 4 AA NiMH with a charger for ~$10. These are things I have lying around anyway.

For WiFi, there's always router sales for $10-$20, and many can be turned into bridges. Some people have a wired connection available. Some people don't even want to play online.

Yeah, if you want to use all the features of the PS3 and must have official accessories, then an XB360 equivalent is expensive. The main reason for this is that Sony turned its back on the tried and true model of minimizing entry cost and reaping profits on accessories. It is good for the consumer that wants to make full use of the PS3, but for everyone else and from a business point of view I don't know why Sony did it.

 

[-tkf-]

I disagree. The PS brand was intended to mean more than just games, and this is the best opportunity to break that stereotype. Sony want people to consider PS as an option whether they're looking to play games, movies, distribute media throughout the house, etc. The brand needs to be perceived as as strong in those fields as gaming.

Well i think they have the movie part done,ever since the PS2 the Playstation have provided movie playback out of the box (unlike the competition). Distrubuting media throughout the house?, if you mean connected to the TV and able to show and play movies, music and pics it´s also build into the console. via memorycard reader and USB support out of the box.

 

[PARANOiA]

Some of you guys are really overestimating the cost of owning a 360.

For batteries, I bought 48 alkalines for $5. I got 4 AA NiMH with a charger for ~$10. These are things I have lying around anyway.

For WiFi, there's always router sales for $10-$20, and many can be turned into bridges. Some people have a wired connection available. Some people don't even want to play online.

Yeah, if you want to use all the features of the PS3 and must have official accessories, then an XB360 equivalent is expensive. The main reason for this is that Sony turned its back on the tried and true model of minimizing entry cost and reaping profits on accessories. It is good for the consumer that wants to make full use of the PS3, but for everyone else and from a business point of view I don't know why Sony did it.

Indeed - most people don't even want wireless for gaming, since it's not as reliable as a wired connection. I'm sure most people are like me, and bought a Premium 360 with nothing else other than games. I have bundles of NiMH AA batteries lying around for my digital cameras, remote controls, torches and whatnot.

And the PS3 controller batteries will fail. Maybe they'll last the life of the console, maybe not - the fact is nobody knows yet. Remember, gen 1 Ipod batteries died after about 12 months for many people. Maybe gaming uses less, maybe not, fact is there's no one with a 12 month old PS3 in the hands of gamers yet!

I don't think it's a huge deal - after all, what's another $au70 in the middle of the life of the console - say, two years of heavy gaming - for someone who has spent $au1000. But when you add the "play and charge kit" as a requirement for the 360 and assume the PS3 controller's battery will last six years, you're not looking at the whole story.

 

[inefficient]

I've gone through so many PS2 gamepads now. They usually only last about 1.5 years max.

It's the analog sticks that always wear down and break from heavy use. And I know I will be end up buying new PS3 pads every few years just because of that mechanical wear and tear. The battery should easily out love the mechanical bits on it.

 

[-tkf-]

And the PS3 controller batteries will fail. Maybe they'll last the life of the console, maybe not - the fact is nobody knows yet. Remember, gen 1 Ipod batteries died after about 12 months for many people. Maybe gaming uses less, maybe not, fact is there's no one with a 12 month old PS3 in the hands of gamers yet!

I don't think it's a huge deal - after all, what's another $au70 in the middle of the life of the console - say, two years of heavy gaming - for someone who has spent $au1000. But when you add the "play and charge kit" as a requirement for the 360 and assume the PS3 controller's battery will last six years, you're not looking at the whole story.

Regarding wireless gaming.. i´m not going back unless i have to because the battery needs to charge i love the freedom
When i bought the console the Controller was on for 2-3 days constantly before needing a recharge, i was folding and didn´t know how to shut down the controller, the power it uses seems low.
The iPOD problem involved people recharging their iPODs everytime they hooked it up to the PC, which of course accelrated the batterys lifetime. Depening on usage etc and a recharge maybe once pr week i can forsee the SixAxis battery to last a long time, i guess missing rumble is good for something

 

[Gubbi]

I disagree. The PS brand was intended to mean more than just games, and this is the best opportunity to break that stereotype. Sony want people to consider PS as an option whether they're looking to play games, movies, distribute media throughout the house, etc. The brand needs to be perceived as as strong in those fields as gaming. That's where it's strongest and most economical.

But it won't be considered a fully fledged media center replacement. The HD is too small to be of any real use as a media server (as is the new 120GB HD in the 360 Elite). But the real killer is the lack of TV tuners. Having TIVO functionality would be the killer app. for a media centric console.

I fear the media capabilities of the PS3 is going the way of the PS2: Largely unused. Today the number of stand alone DVD players sold each quarter roughly equals the total amount of PS2s sold over 6 (7?) years. In a few years time it will be the same with PS3 and standalone HDDVD/Bluray players.

Personally I've had both a PS2 and a XBOX 1 with DVD kit, my current 360 also have DVD playback capability, yet I'm on my 4th standalone DVD player.

Cheers

 

[-tkf-]

But it won't be considered a fully fledged media center replacement. The HD is too small to be of any real use as a media server (as is the new 120GB HD in the 360 Elite). But the real killer is the lack of TV tuners. Having TIVO functionality would be the killer app. for a media centric console.

I fear the media capabilities of the PS3 is going the way of the PS2: Largely unused. Today the number of stand alone DVD players sold each quarter roughly equals the total amount of PS2s sold over 6 (7?) years. In a few years time it will be the same with PS3 and standalone HDDVD/Bluray players.

Personally I've had both a PS2 and a XBOX 1 with DVD kit, my current 360 also have DVD playback capability, yet I'm on my 4th standalone DVD player.

Cheers

The thing that is missing is the ability to tape/record TV from either a digital or analog tuner. But supporting a IPTV solution (or whatever it´s called) should be no problem. And while 60GB isn´t alot it´s a good start, if more space is needed you can buy a 500GB usb drive. I think my PS3 will be my primary BluRay player for a long time, the wireless controller makes the difference

 

[quest55720]

But it won't be considered a fully fledged media center replacement. The HD is too small to be of any real use as a media server (as is the new 120GB HD in the 360 Elite). But the real killer is the lack of TV tuners. Having TIVO functionality would be the killer app. for a media centric console.

I fear the media capabilities of the PS3 is going the way of the PS2: Largely unused. Today the number of stand alone DVD players sold each quarter roughly equals the total amount of PS2s sold over 6 (7?) years. In a few years time it will be the same with PS3 and standalone HDDVD/Bluray players.

Personally I've had both a PS2 and a XBOX 1 with DVD kit, my current 360 also have DVD playback capability, yet I'm on my 4th standalone DVD player.

Cheers

One of the DVD players I use is 5-6 years old works very well. Paid like 249 dollars for it was worth every penny thing has played thousands of movies for me. On the other hand my track record with consoles is not so good. I broke more NESs than I care to remember 3 PS1s, 2 PS2s, 2 dreamcasts.

I think the media capabilities will be in the hands of the home brew guys. I don't think sony will support more than blue ray officially. Being a content provider I am sure they would be to paranoid about piracy. If those home brew guys could come up with the next gen xbox media center on the PS3 well I would be forced to buy a PS3 since every other media extender for HD pretty much sucks.

 

[Diamond.G]

The thing that is missing is the ability to tape/record TV from either a digital or analog tuner. But supporting a IPTV solution (or whatever it´s called) should be no problem. And while 60GB isn´t alot it´s a good start, if more space is needed you can buy a 500GB usb drive. I think my PS3 will be my primary BluRay player for a long time, the wireless controller makes the difference

Do you think that Sony has gotten the cost of the system down far enough for any of the "Cable" providers to bite? It seemed as though those providers would be buying the hardware and providing it for the customers.

So you feel that positioning the PS3 as the best bluray player for the price in the market is a bad idea? Okay so the system is 500 dollars, great I am just so suprised that none of the other systems gets a pass for the potential argument. PS3 can do all these media things right now yet all I seem to hear out of people is "Wait for game X or Studio Y to get a grips on it". Well if I am gonna do that then why the hell pay 500 dollars. Repeat after me: As a videogame system that is a crappy price. I might as well wait for those games to come out or a price drop before jumping in. Now if I was watching TV and Sony came out and said hey not only can the PS3 play games but it is the best least expensive High definition movie player out, that can also do picture slideshows and whatever else the system is supposed to do. Then I would be like, oh, man 500 dollars is a steal (comparing to any of the other BR players that I see at BB). Instead of having the PS3 kiosk sit over in the videogame section playing demos of videogames, put it out in the HT section. Have it play Black Hawk Down, or Casino Royale. Show people what the thing can do. People are willing to buy the HDTV's after seeing pretty content, let them see that the PS3 is a provider of such.

 

[quest55720]

Do you think that Sony has gotten the cost of the system down far enough for any of the "Cable" providers to bite? It seemed as though those providers would be buying the hardware and providing it for the customers.

So you feel that positioning the PS3 as the best bluray player for the price in the market is a bad idea? Okay so the system is 500 dollars, great I am just so suprised that none of the other systems gets a pass for the potential argument. PS3 can do all these media things right now yet all I seem to hear out of people is "Wait for game X or Studio Y to get a grips on it". Well if I am gonna do that then why the hell pay 500 dollars. Repeat after me: As a videogame system that is a crappy price. I might as well wait for those games to come out or a price drop before jumping in. Now if I was watching TV and Sony came out and said hey not only can the PS3 play games but it is the best least expensive High definition movie player out, that can also do picture slideshows and whatever else the system is supposed to do. Then I would be like, oh, man 500 dollars is a steal (comparing to any of the other BR players that I see at BB). Instead of having the PS3 kiosk sit over in the videogame section playing demos of videogames, put it out in the HT section. Have it play Black Hawk Down, or Casino Royale. Show people what the thing can do. People are willing to buy the HDTV's after seeing pretty content, let them see that the PS3 is a provider of such.

The problem with that IMO is that most people don't care about HD-movies right now. Most people don't have huge 50+ inch 1080P tvs were it would make a huge difference. Most people have the funky just past 720P 37" pannel from wallmart. On a tv like that most people will not see a big enough difference with hd-movie and upconverted DVDs to pay a premium. In my case I think up converted DVDs look just fine on my 720p 42 inch TV. I see no need to pay a premium for HD-movies right now. In the future when HD-movies drop in price and stand alone players get to a reasonable level 249 or less then I will take the plunge.

Lets be honest half the reason people buy HD-TVs is simply for the form factor. They want thin TVs they can mount on a wall or a tv that looks much nice in the living room compared to the old CRTs.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But it won't be considered a fully fledged media center replacement.

I disagree there. I've a friend who turned a PC into a MPC and it's very good and functional, yet looking forwards he's considering whether to go with the PS3 or not. HDD storage isn't an issue as you can connect any storage up. PS3 supports the standards. You can buy yourself a large NAT that PS3 can work with alongside your PC in the study.

PS3 serves all the functions of a media PC except recording - playback of your entire media library from one device, neatly catalogued and presented. Content can be beamed around the house. Quality is fantastic. Also integrates content purchasing online, so you can browse the web, hear internet radio, find a song you like, buy it and add it to your playlist, from one box that sits nicely in the living room. It's cheaper than a PC to do all those jobs. Add a TV tuner/capture peripheral and it'll manage everything, but even without that (which looks set to be the perogative of the cable companies. You have ot have their box anyway so it makes sense for them to integrate the recording with the delivery) it does most things media related. There's been nothing my friend's MPC has done that PS3 can't do, plus PS3 plays better games and is cheaper! I can't see much reason to pick a MPC over a PS3. It's more this market that Sony are gunning for. They need to be sure that anyone looking for a MPC picks a PS3 instead (direct support of iTunes would be a bonus here!)