A Couple PS1/N64-gen questions

[mech]

Hehehe, you want to talk about what looks nice due to emulation?

Remember Mario 64?

Remember when Wave Race 64 first showed off Cel-shading on the N64? I know I did.

That's not quite emulation.

That looks awesome though, I want a copy...

 

[Tagrineth]

There's also a mod on the emulators that'll overclock the darn thing as well. It runs Goldeneye and Perfect Dark at 60fps.

N64 emulators don't actually emulate much of the hardware at all. They run 60 fps because they're not running much of the code natively. Look up High Level Emulation.

 

[ken_masters]

A N64 modded to get RGB output will be mine very soon, I'll post impresions

 

[fearsomepirate]

I kinda wish there was some way to inexpensively put together a box that would just emulate an N64 and read directly from cartridges. Basically, a Wii that would read N64 carts.

 

[swaaye]

That would also require a nearly flawless emulator, which certainly does not exist right now.

I have Surreal64 on my Xbox and it comes with 3 separate emulators (UltraHLE, Project64, and 1964), each which may work with a given game. An awful lot of games don't work at all. Some games work perfectly tho, like Mario 64 and Zelda, and look a lot better running through that NV2A at 640x480. Proper bilinear/trilinear/anisotropic filtering goes a very long way. Xbox's 64 MB RAM isn't quite enough for big ROMs like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. I think the emulator will even scale to HD resolutions for your TV I have a 36" SDTV tho.

I heart my special Xbox. But for N64 gaming, I do prefer the real machine most of the time. It's more authentic, you know. Heh.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

That's not quite emulation.

That looks awesome though, I want a copy...

What do you mean that's not quite emulation? To get the games to look like that, you use the latest plugins to load the hi-res textures. This trend's been around for a few years now and tons of brand new works are being produced almost everyday.

Here's a Starfox 64 side by side comparison.

http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starfoximage2it2.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starfoximage3rv0.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starfoximage1wz3.jpg

N64 emulators don't actually emulate much of the hardware at all. They run 60 fps because they're not running much of the code natively. Look up High Level Emulation.

I know, but even then the games don't run at 60fps. The hack itself overclocks the thing to allow true 60fps. I'm not very good at this, I'll just link you to the thread about it.

http://emutalk.net/showthread.php?t=40311

 

[ArturNOW]

What point in showing screenshots from Emulator with CUSTOM Hi-Res textures? Both PSX and N64 ain't capable to handle those textures. Were are screenshots with orginal texture and only with higher resolution so no texture filtring for PSX.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

schmuck wanted to talk about emulation, and I was happy to play along with him. I know the real N64 can't do that, but schmuck wants to talk emu, so I talk emu.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I just finished Turok 2. It's like all the core elements of a great game wrapped around horrendous level design. It got a lot more fun once I just said "screw it" to finding all the little doodads flung across the massive levels and used the "All Special Items" cheat. It looks fantastic in hi-res but runs like crap. It runs OK in low-res and still is one of the best-looking games from that gen I've played yet.

 

[swaaye]

I remember all the pre-release hoopla over Turok 2. It really was state of the art 3D rendering for the time, and certainly for N64. It got panned pretty bad for its frame rate problems, however. They pushed the system too far, just like Perfect Dark. I played the game a bit, but never really got anywhere. Hunting for hours for what might as well be the next "door key" is just awful, IMO.

 

[vazel]

Turok 2 looked amazing for its day(Iguana Entertainment was awesome on the N64). One scene that left an impression on me is when you're about to walk across a bridge and this monster jumps from under it breaking the bridge. It was the first time I had seen the environment play a role like that in a game. I was disappointed when the developer admitted they were scaling things down in the next Turok game, I guess back then people cared more about framerate than they do now.

I remember they touted the AI in Turok 2. That was a sure way to attract me to games. When I was a noob to tech stuff AI is what fascinated me the most(Well I'm still a bit of a noob but back then it was worse). A big reason I got the Dreamcast was because it's CPU was supposed to give us awesome AI. "It's thinking".

 

[fearsomepirate]

I was disappointed when the developer admitted they were scaling things down in the next Turok game, I guess back then people cared more about framerate than they do now.

No, it's more like today, a "bad framerate" is under 25 fps, and back then, a "bad framerate" was more like 15 fps. But like I said, when you run it in low-res mode, it's not significantly worse than Goldeneye and still is one of the best-looking N64 games. I think the bad framerates are mainly caused by their animation/skinning system. It always chops up when enemies are on screen.

The music is great, some of the best console FPS music I've heard outside of Halo.

 

[Tagrineth]

I know, but even then the games don't run at 60fps. The hack itself overclocks the thing to allow true 60fps. I'm not very good at this, I'll just link you to the thread about it.

Oh yeah, I'm familiar with the idea that the emulator still "emulates the game slowly" - I've been a registered poster on EmuTalk longer than I've been on THIS board! - but the rendering is still faster than on the real deal.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Can anyone clue me in as to what was supposed to be so state-of-the-art about Turok 2? Was it just the fact that there's a lot of real-time lighting and it could run in hi-res, or is there more to it than that? Port of Adia has an awesome theme; I know I've said that already.

I just got Waverace 64. It's pretty awesome. The N64 started off with some pretty ugly games, and PS1 devs did some neat tricks, but sorry, I just can't compare any PS1 platformer to Banjo Kazooie. It just isn't fair.

 

[swaaye]

Waverace 64's wave action and that Drake Lake course were very impressive. Well, that game in general was impressive. I think it was a launch title that pretty much maxed out the machine. Especially when you consider that it actually had a great frame rate.

Turok 2 had 640x480 and neat lighting. I think that was what was exciting about it.

http://ign64.ign.com/objects/001/001969.html

The graphics engine also has been radically enhanced. Acclaim promises smooth framerates, incredible, eye-popping effects (if you've seen Turok's explosions, you know this is no idle threat), and advanced realtime lighting effects. In addition to working on eliminating Turok's biggest problem, the fog, Iguana has switched over to "soft-skinned" characters that don't show polygon seam lines (like in NFL Quarterback Club). Even better, the programmers have implemented an additional graphics mode that can be activated if the much talked-about 4MB RAM expansion is installed. With the additional 4MBs, players can switch the whole game to hi-res (640x480) or a slightly faster hi-res letterbox mode. The multiplayer modes can also be played in hi-res.

Graphics

There are two sides to Turok 2 -- and no, we're not talking about the RAM Pak. First, there is the Turok 2 that dazzles the eye with realtime lighting effects, soft-skinned characters with unrivaled animation routines, unique architecture in each level, super-sharp and detailed textures, and some of the grossest, bloodiest death scenes you have ever seen. Then there is the Turok 2 that infuriates its player with disappointingly slow and choppy framerates, mostly caused by effects that we could have done without (like the particle explosions. We would have loved the less processor-intensive explosions Eurocom pulled off in the old Duke Nukem 64 and a better framerate instead). Play Turok 1 or Forsaken after Turok 2 and you will see the difference.

Luckily, the slowdown isn't enough to destroy the game. There are many areas where the game runs smoothly and the included "hi-rez letterbox" mode actually increases the performance a little for those who get annoyed by slowdown. Speaking of which, there is no way around it: You have to get the RAM Expansion to play this game. Not only can you play the game at a smoother framerate in the letterbox mode, you also get to run it at full-screen high resolution (640x480) mode with only little framerate tradeoffs. The sharpness and extra detail is worth it.

Like in Turok 1, the weapons look outstanding, with many movable parts and excellent special effects. In the multplayer mode, Iguana wisely moved the weapons more to the side and redesigned them to look a little less complex (for framerate reasons). As we mentioned above, animation is extremely lifelike. Creatures open and close their mouths, get blasted into two bleeding halves or lose their heads and stumble around for a few seconds before they die. It's sick, but it's fascinating to look at nevertheless. Each level has its own architecture and Iguana's graphics designers did a bang-up job creating convincing societies of creatures with their own culture and behaviorisms. The Purr-Linn, for example, live in block forts that look rough and primitive, whereas the Oblivion (don't ask. Play the game.) live in hi-tech cellars with spinning fans and reflective metal surfaces. There are plenty of scenes borrowed from sci-fi blockbusters, such as the predator-inspired cloaking and self-destruction devices and the somewhat Giger-esque hive with alien eggs. A beautiful game. Too bad about the framerate drops.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Ah, I guess I didn't have the eyes to see some of that stuff. But in retrospect, soft-skinning was a bad design decision. The game really chugs when displaying multiple enemies, probably because of that.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Ah, I guess I didn't have the eyes to see some of that stuff. But in retrospect, soft-skinning was a bad design decision. The game really chugs when displaying multiple enemies, probably because of that.

The skinning allowed them to make detailed characters with less polygons. It was the way the industry needed to go because the sausage-linked bodies of Turok 1, Mario 64, and Virtua Fighter 3 are highly inefficient and ugly to boot.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I prefer good framerates over...well, just about anything. If you can't keep the game above 15 fps when using a certain technique, then you shouldn't use the technique, period.

 

[Nesh]

The skinning allowed them to make detailed characters with less polygons. It was the way the industry needed to go because the sausage-linked bodies of Turok 1, Mario 64, and Virtua Fighter 3 are highly inefficient and ugly to boot.

You mean VF 2 right?

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Wait a minute, how does the DS stack up to the N64/PSX? Isn't the DS a portable N64 with some tweaks? Was it as powerful as the N64? I know the DS seems to lack texture filtering like the N64, so at very least, we know it's closer to the PSX. Is the DS a more refined version of the N64, or a system built from ground up that's roughly the same power as the N64?