3G and radiation

[Humus]

Seriously, is this happening anywhere else, that reactionary people totally dominates the politics around the 3G mobile networks? I'm going nuts over all the whackos talking about how dangerous the "radiation" supposedly is (and why suddenly start to use that word instead of "radiowaves" that we're using otherwise?) and do everything in their power to stop the building process, not only politically but sometimes also by vandalism on the equipment.

Alright, so it's not proven that it's not dangerous, but it's not proven that it is either, and I don't see any reason to believe so either. I mean, we're constantly in a flood of radiowaves in all possible frequencies flowing over us. Though different frequencies can have different properties I see little reason to believe that these particular frequencies would be harmful in any way to humans. But what disturbs me the most is not that debate, but how these whackos go on about how "useless" it is. "I can call with the phone I got already". Well so could you do with your NMT phone too, and your homephone, so go away you technology illiterate punk, I don't see you driving around in a T-ford just because it would work fine. Can't somebody just educate these people about the benefits of packet based networks and bandwidth?

[/rant]

 

[Tagrineth]

Anyone here read PopSci?

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

Ask Russ to give them a gave. I'm sure they'll be happy then.

 

[epicstruggle]

wasnt there a study just released in the last 2 or 3 days saying that cell phones and their equip. does not cause cancer. Ill see if can find a link

later,
epic

 

[Dave Baumann]

I half remember a radio report that was talking about this. They were saying that previous to 3G the networks were using regular pulse signals, which are more likely cause issues with certain people. 3G uses random pulse signals so 3G transmissions are actually less likely to cause issues because of the random transmission nature. Unfortunatly, because the few 3G phones that are out there are having to interface with previous to 3G networks then they are still operating on the regular pulses most of the time. So, if we all upgrade to 3G phones it could actually result in a lower health risk.

Like I said, I only half remember the report so the technical details may be wrong, but it went something along those lines.

 

[Humus]

Anyone here read PopSci?

I assume you're talking about this article. Well, this is GSM, which has been operating well over a decade now, and so far there's nothing indicating that people have been damaged by it. Also, I did a quick google search on this, and it's seems this is nothing new. I found essentially the same article dated 1999 too, which then supposedly verified results from as far back as 1977, but which could not be repeated by another study in 1982 ...

 

[Sideshow]

Well.. I myself believs that cellphones and such can cause damage to the brain etc. There are many studies showing this.. but then again as many studies showing that it does not cause us any harm. Here in sweden The Swedish Radiation Protection Authority chooses to ignore all the ones that points to cellphones causing damage, and just believing on the others.

And then there is this 3G thing that no one seems to want but the politicians. I have heard friends talking about forming "guerilla bands" and destroy equipment. This can easily be done by cutting the grounding-cable and then just wait for a thunder-storm (I have heard about this being done in parts of sweden a couple of times). But i doubt this will ever become reality where I live.

Another thing with the creation of the 3g net i sweden is that it was due to be finnished before 1 jan 2004. By then 98% of the population would be covered.. the reality though is that only 4 cities is toatlly covered ( a little unsure in this though). One of the 4 companys that was approved to build the net has stopped due to it not being profitable inuf, and the others is strugeling with zero income and huge expenses.
My conclusion is that a great number of people here in sweden just dont want this new "thing".

sorry for my bad english.

 

[Humus]

This "nobody wants" impression is what you can get if you read the left-wing tabloid media. But if you care to read a technology magazine you'll see that it's not true. And why would it be? Sweden have been on the front line on adopting so many other technology fields, and telecom is still one of our most important industries and we're still one of the countries with the largest amount of cellphone users / capita.

As for coverage, you're certainly not up to date. Coverage is pretty good already. Most of the equipment is already in place, even in tiny places, though not everything is operating yet. My homecity has equipment in place (8,000 citizens), and so is it in the neighbor town of Norsjö (4,500 citizens), and I even think it's true for Storuman (4,000) and Sorsele (3,000) too. By march PTS is going to start controlling the operators coverage, so the best bet is that most will be up and running by then.

Of course it isn't profitable by now. The customer base is still small, and it's not because nobody wants it. It's because it's not fully up and running yet, and phones are still large and expensive, and the potential of services to offer is far from fully explored yet.

If any of your "friends" take their words into action I sure hope you have the guts to call the police about it. We don't need more vandals.

 

[Sideshow]

Of course i would call the police of anything happened... not that the police would do sh*t but anyway.

Regarding the facts that nobody really wants 3g, doesnt the sell numbers from the only company out there say inuf? If people wanted this technology would they not buy it? Where do you get the facts about coverage? As far as i know my hometown Eskilstuna (~90,000 citizens) doesn´t have sufficient coverage for using the more advanced features that 3g offers. There is also serious problems with easy things such as calling etc. You can´t really move while talking because then you lose the signal the the tele-station and the call gets interrupted. But of course this doesn´t need to be the case all over Sweden (although tought so).

 

[London Geezer]

To answer your question, yes, everyone around the world is talking about it, i read many articles in UK papers.

We will probably never know whether cell phones are actually a danger, because we are bombarded with all kind of radiowaves every second of our life. It would be almost impossible to accuse these radiowaves over others.

All i can say is that, seen the effect my mobile phone has on my monitor or TV or any kind of electical equipment really (when leaving it close to it) is quite wild, and i'm not sure we are totally "immune" to the "mess". If you know what i mean. And it's getting worse, my new Sony T610 has a "wilder" effect on other equipment than my old Nokia ones.

Oh, another question, can the crazy effect on TVs and such (when the phone receives or sends a signal) damage the equipment in any way? That one must have been proved by now...

 

[Humus]

Regarding the facts that nobody really wants 3g, doesnt the sell numbers from the only company out there say inuf? If people wanted this technology would they not buy it? Where do you get the facts about coverage? As far as i know my hometown Eskilstuna (~90,000 citizens) doesn´t have sufficient coverage for using the more advanced features that 3g offers. There is also serious problems with easy things such as calling etc. You can´t really move while talking because then you lose the signal the the tele-station and the call gets interrupted. But of course this doesn´t need to be the case all over Sweden (although tought so).

You don't think there can be any connection between the difficulties you describe and the low sales numbers? People don't buy it because of the large parts of the network isn't operating yet, there are technical difficulties in the operating parts, many services aren't ready, and the phones are a good deal larger and more expensive than older GSM phones. I'm very interested in 3G, but I don't plan on buying a 3G phone just yet. Not everyone jumped on the GSM bandwagon on day one either. 3G is a long term investment, and will probably be around at least 10 years before 4G comes around.

As for coverage, I saw it on the regional news a couple of weeks ago where they shortly presented the state of the 3G network in Västerbotten. Basically, equipment was in place in most towns, but not yet operating. It was only operating in larger cities, like Umeå and Skellefteå.

 

[Humus]

Oh, another question, can the crazy effect on TVs and such (when the phone receives or sends a signal) damage the equipment in any way? That one must have been proved by now...

Well, if it did damage equipment I think we would have heard about it by now. And in any case, since cell phones are so common, I think manufacturers would protect parts of any kind of sensitive parts of the equipment from radiation.

 

[Gubbi]

Seriously, is this happening anywhere else, that reactionary people totally dominates the politics around the 3G mobile networks? I'm going nuts over all the whackos talking about how dangerous the "radiation" supposedly is (and why suddenly start to use that word instead of "radiowaves" that we're using otherwise?) and do everything in their power to stop the building process, not only politically but sometimes also by vandalism on the equipment.
[/rant]

While large part of the debate is just mass hysteria, there is reason to investigate effects on biological systems, IMO.

Old GSM phones just used the 900MHz bands which are completely harmless.

However, modern phones uses radio frequencies that to a higher and higher degree are absorbed in biological tissue. Modern 3G phones operate from approx 1700MHz to 2150MHz. A microwave oven operates at 2450MHz (optimal for getting energy absorbed in water molecules).

What is the great unknown is if this energy just goes into warming your brain slightly in a uniform manner or if you can risk getting highly localised "hot spots" with risk of damaging your DNA with all the carcinogenic consequences that has.

People who argue the health hazard side says that you can get as much as 40% of the energy output of a cellular phone absorbed in your brain (equalling ~0.5 W worst case).

Those who argue against says that only 2.5/3G devices use the 2GHz bands, all in a packet switched manner which lowers your exposure wattage considerably. Also there are asymetrical antennas that radiates "outwards", going easy on the brain and, more importantly, the battery.

We still don't know enough fore and against, certainly not enough to cause mass hysteria and ban cellulars, but not enough to totally acquit them either

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[arjan de lumens]

Hmm, as for emitting electric/magnetic fields, radiation etc, how bad can a cell-phone be compared to, say, a hair-drier? I mean, a cell-phone may heat up your brain with an effect of ~0.5 Watts or so, while a hair-drier easily does hundreds of Watts with strong hot-spot formation as well. Also, a hair-drier produces some rather strong electric fields as well, which can't possibly he healthy .....

So, can anyone please explain to me why there is so much noise about cell-phones and none at all about hair-driers?

 

[Humus]

While large part of the debate is just mass hysteria, there is reason to investigate effects on biological systems, IMO.

Well, I'm certainly not against research on the subject, though I'd rather wait with the paranoia until we found any reason to believe it's harmful.

What is the great unknown is if this energy just goes into warming your brain slightly in a uniform manner or if you can risk getting highly localised "hot spots" with risk of damaging your DNA with all the carcinogenic consequences that has.

People who argue the health hazard side says that you can get as much as 40% of the energy output of a cellular phone absorbed in your brain (equalling ~0.5 W worst case).

I don't get why there would be "hot spots". The radiowaves are spread in a uniform matter, and should be taken up rather uniformly in the body. In microwave ovens it's mainly the water in the food that is heated by the radio waves, and I would imagine the same thing happening in the body.

Also, I've seen that 40% figure before, but I don't see how it can even be true. Do even 40% of it pass the brain. More than 50% of it goes away from the head, and I don't think 100% of what's going in the direction of the head is absorbed.