3D Gaming*

[Arwin]

I was in the store today and discovered there (at least) 8 models of 3D televisions displayed, ranging from 1450 to 3000 euros. I asked to test the 3000 one, a Samsung, as it had Monsters vs Aliens and animated films tend to be far and away the best showcase/quality (my dad had come across this weeks earlier than me and tried it all on his own by the way)

The short of it: I was pretty much blown away by the quality of the picture and the 3D (200hz, wireless glasses that weighed practically nothing, wore them over my own glasses). Lots of nice shots and effects, but the biggest showcase that I came across in my 5-10 minutes of watching, was when the lead character points a gun at the main villain, and that gun completely sticks out of the TV completely believably - the quality easily surpassed the cinema, and this was in very bright conditions right in the middle of the store. I couldn't really find any fault with it, except noticing the (presumably 24fps) framerate stutter.

If this is the quality I can purchase for 1000 euros by June 2010, then I'll get one practically guaranteed. And boy is it going to be tough to wait that long!

I grabbed two quick shots with my iPhone:

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I heard there was a 3D TV on display in a local store...without any 3D specs. Way to advertise!

 

[Arwin]

I heard there was a 3D TV on display in a local store...without any 3D specs. Way to advertise!

Normally you have to ask staff for the glasses?

 

[Squilliam]

Im just curious guys about these PAL 3D TVs. Are there any which support 120hz for PC gaming? The PITA of being in PAL is that im not sure whether games are designed for 100hz displays and whether the extra hz would be wasted and the game would default back to 60!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PAL 50hz TVs died years ago. Every TV can support 50 and 60Hz inputs (and variations thereof). 50Hz is now only a legacy broadcast format. Case in point, this TV/Monitor I'm looking it is 60Hz showing PC, 60Hz on PS3, and shows a PIP of the terrestrial TV broadcast at 50 within the PC display. I don't think any developer targets 25/50fps for PAL on the HD consoles (which would mean those viewing on PAL SDTVs would be getting slightly less use from their consoles with more idling time); maybe on Wii as legacy for last-gen.

 

[Squilliam]

PAL 50hz TVs died years ago. Every TV can support 50 and 60Hz inputs (and variations thereof). 50Hz is now only a legacy broadcast format. Case in point, this TV/Monitor I'm looking it is 60Hz showing PC, 60Hz on PS3, and shows a PIP of the terrestrial TV broadcast at 50 within the PC display. I don't think any developer targets 25/50fps for PAL on the HD consoles (which would mean those viewing on PAL SDTVs would be getting slightly less use from their consoles with more idling time); maybe on Wii as legacy for last-gen.

But what if I wanted to run a game at 120FPS on a TV which reports 200hz/100hz respectively? Thats at the upper range and I am still confused about whether games will display properly at 100hz in 3D because I can only set Vsync etc in multiples of 60 AFAIK.

 

[TheWretched]

In Germany, all HDTV channels broadcast in 50Hz! They should've simply switched to 48Hz or some other multiple of 24Hz, so they only need to concentrate on one standard... (well, assholes in german public TV opted for 720P/50Hz, as they say "if we deinterlace, the quality will be better"...)

Console makers were intelligent enough to just adhere to one standard now, in HD... which is 60Hz. No more "slower games" as in the Mega Drive era, no more different resolutions, nothing of that.

 

[patsu]

ESPN bullish on 3DTV uptake:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/453022-3DTV_2010_Event_Bratches_Bullish_on_ESPN_3D_Uptake.php

ESPN 3D will launch on the top cable operator (Comcast) and the top satellite-TV provider (DirecTV) on June 11 with access to more than 40 million homes, much more than the ESPN HD launch, though the 2003 rollout did start with some larger operators such as Cox.

...

He said that by 2019, ESPN thinks penetration of 3D sets in the home will be below HD sets but above digital video recorders. "I think the home rate will be high," he said.
"Sports fans are early adopters of technology, and we think that the genre plays very well in terms of the technology, and we're very optimistic about our plans."

...

 

[patsu]

Besides Ubisoft, Crytek and Sony first parties, Sega has also noted that they want to make more 3DTV games: http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/05/29/naoya_tsurumi_interview/

Looking forward to things to come, Nikkei asked Tsurmi the expected question about 3D gaming. Said Tsurumi, "I believe 3D will become a big wave. The Nintendo 3DS is a landmark hardware. We'd like to invest heavily in it."

Outside of 3DS, Tsurumi also said Sega would "definitely" like to support 3D console games, although he believes success here will depend on the spread of 3D televisions. He also echoed comments from other execs that making games compatible with 3D viewing is not difficult on a technical level.

 

[patsu]

I vaguely remember I posted about Sony's 3D.cafe before, but it was not open then. Now it is:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3179554

As expected with 2D assets ported to 3D, GT5 has the pop-up book look. Looks like MotorStorm and KZ3 may be the better stereoscopic 3D games on PS3. Good to hear it's not headache inducing though.

In addition to concerts and events featuring 3D footage being filmed live, Sony turned a local coffee shop into the "3D dot cafe," where they provided playable Gran Turismo 5 demo stations and displayed game and film trailers alongside sports footage. We had the chance to check out the cafe during it's from from May 21 to 25.

Gran Turismo 5 didn't look markedly better or worse in 3D when compared to its showing at TGS last year. However, it suffered from the "pop-up book look" that many 3D images do--the game looked as if it was composed of several 2D images layered on top of each other. Movies that are filmed in 2D and brought to 3D via CGI tend to suffer from the same problem (think Clash of the Titans or Alice in Wonderland.)

Though 3D images can be hard to watch for a long period of time, GT5 was relatively easy to look at. This is thanks in large part to the game not using any strong depth of field effects. Often times the 3D image in a game or movie is broken when the viewer tries to examine an object that the camera is not focused on. The brain tries to process the object, but the eyes can't bring it into focus, creating an odd effect that causes headaches or nausea in some. All objects in GT5, regardless of location, are rendered without any post-processing blur, so no matter where we looked on the screen, we could focus easily.

 

[Rangers]

I've been listening to the podcast rounds lately, they all played the KZ3 3D demo, they all seemed underwhelmed to say the least, citing a laundry list of technical problems, and just the fact the 2D version looked sharper and without eyestrain.

 

[patsu]

The KZ3 folks mentioned that they are in pre-alpha. Still using some KZ2 assets and 3D is sub-HD. One of the interviews stated that they are shooting for 3D HD in the final game.

Also found on GAF... Consumer Reports has a 3DTV comparison in March:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/el...-3d-content-3d-glasses-crosstalk-three-d.html

The TV set may matter too:

But based on our preliminary tests, we give the Panasonic the edge. In the 3D mode, its lack of crosstalk and great black levels really made three-dimensional images pop. It also didn’t have any issues with backlight cloudiness, and offered a very wide viewing angle. But remember that we haven’t completed our final tests, and haven’t seen enough 3D sets to make any judgments about whether plasma or LCD is inherently a better technology for displaying 3D. But we can’t wait to get more sets into our TV Lab.

Word on the street is KZ3 trailer will be out on 11th June. Hopefully we can see some 3D footage.

EDIT:
Sharp plunges headfirst into 3D market with LV-series Quattron TVs, Blu-ray DVRs:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/02/sharp-plunges-headfirst-into-3d-market-with-lv-series-quattron-t/

Looks like Sharp's keeping its word -- next month, the fourth-largest LCD TV maker will launch a slate of new 3D TVs in Japan, just as planned. Based on the same Sharp Quattron quad-pixel technology that made George Takei's jaw drop, the new LV-series of AQUOS panels will come in 40-, 46-, 52- and 60-inch sizes when they debut July 30th, and feature 1080p resolution, UV²A panels and a high-speed signaling technology named FRED that Sharp says increases brightness and reduces crosstalk. More interesting are the AN-3DG10 glasses that come with them, which reportedly allow each individual viewer decide whether to view content in 2D or 3D -- we're guessing by tweaking the glasses to show either the left or right image to both eyes simultaneously, instead of flipping back and forth.

...

 

[patsu]

The Return of the [strike]King[/strike] Queen:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...lure-consumers-to-new-sony-panasonic-tvs.html

“Adult videos will likely be an incentive for consumers to buy a 3-D TV,” said Fujimori, at Barclays Capital in Tokyo. “It’s worth paying attention to the move because it’s lack of content that’s hindering expansion.”

Closely-held S1 No.1Style will offer “3D X Mika Kayama” on June 7 and “3D X Yuma Asami,” Japan’s first pornographic titles in the new format, on June 19 to coincide with the release of Sony’s 3-D Bravia models

...

S1 No.1Style, which releases about 25 DVDs a month, is offering 3-D titles at the same price of 2,980 yen as 2-D ones, Sakon said. Soft on Demand Co., a Tokyo-based adult-film company, plans to sell two 3-D titles on June 25 and more later this year, according to Tsuyoshi Fujimoto, a spokesman.

Local TV station Sky Perfect JSAT Corp. will join BS Broadcasting Corp. and Jupiter Telecommunications Co. in airing 3-D programs on June 19

[size=-2]I sure hope they do tasteful ones. [/size]

 

[patsu]

Sony: Retrofitting Existing PlayStation Games To 3D A 'Challenge':
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...sting_PlayStation_Games_To_3D_A_Challenge.php

Sony is considering retrofitting more previously released PlayStation 3 titles with 3D, as it has with several other games already, but the company admits that the process can be "a challenge".

...

"Also, the game interfaces are often designed to only work in 2D. The process used [to] covert the games varies greatly... so there isn't really a 'one size fits all' solution,"

...

 

[jlippo]

[size=-2]I sure hope they do tasteful ones. [/size]

Indeed, 3D gimmick of throwing things at viewer might poke in the eye in a most unpleasant way..

 

[DmitryKo]

At 600 Hz subfields and 120 Hz framerate there are 5 subfields per frame, so 5 bits of gradation per colour component.

AFAIK this is not correct, one single pulse is not just "on" and "off".

Plasma displays use Pulse-width modulation and I'd imagine the full scale of brightness gradations can be encoded within one single 600 Hz pulse, which is further devided by 1024 to 4096 gradations (hence 10 to 12 bit per color component) which are encoded with the active pulse width and duty cycle. A higher carrier frequency of 600 Hz just allows less flicker in comparison to 480 Hz frequency, provided the phosphors fade fast enough to support it. Otherwise the math just doesn't add up.

 

[ERP]

Sony: Retrofitting Existing PlayStation Games To 3D A 'Challenge':
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...sting_PlayStation_Games_To_3D_A_Challenge.php

Most games do at least part of there processing by compositing in screen space rather than in 3D, or Either don't write Z values for some items or use inconsistent Z values for items in the scene (the sky being the usually obviously broken entity).

It just takes time to resolve all of these things, NVidia cam to us when when we were late in development on a project. In our case the only item that didn't "just work" were shadows, but we'd have had to completely change the way shadows were rendered to address it, at the point they approached us we deemed it too expensive to fix.

 

[Alucardx23]

I was thinking it would be truly impressive to se a combination of head tracking like the video bellow and 3D, now that would be something else, that’s something impossible to do in movies but easy in games, that should be the way to promote 3D in games not doing the same thing movies are doing, with head tracking it would complete the window effect that current 3D without head tracking cant do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

 

[patsu]

I was thinking it would be truly impressive to se a combination of head tracking like the video bellow and 3D, now that would be something else, that’s something impossible to do in movies but easy in games, that should be the way to promote 3D in games not doing the same thing movies are doing, with head tracking it would complete the window effect that current 3D without head tracking cant do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

GT5 is said to have head tracking and 3D (Not sure if they will be used together though).

I think for the most part, the gamer would be sitting in one spot. The head tracking is most likely for fine tuning only.

Stereoscopic 3D should be able to present the window/depth effect and the pop-up effect without head tracking (You don't need to move your head or body to see depth).

 

[Alucardx23]

GT5 is said to have head tracking and 3D (Not sure if they will be used together though).

I think for the most part, the gamer would be sitting in one spot. The head tracking is most likely for fine tuning only.

Stereoscopic 3D should be able to present the window/depth effect and the pop-up effect without head tracking (You don't need to move your head or body to see depth).

I understand that standing in one place in front of the TV gives a good 3D effect, but I’m talking about the advantage that videogames have that movies don’t and I think developers should take advantage of that creating new gameplay, a simple demo of what I’m talking about would be a cube floating on the center of the screen, with 3D without head tracking it doesn’t matter where you move in your room you will always get the same angle as if you where in front of the TV, the illusion is not complete even if you move your head to the right or the left, but with head tracking you can explore that cube from every angle and maintain the Stereoscopic image controlling the camera angle with the position of your head, image a puzzle in Silent Hill or something like that where you have to analyze a 3D object on screen moving around it, I think it would greatly enhance the immersion you can feel playing the game.